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I am not talking about guys that just hop from on martial arts to the next without staying one for a few years. When I say instructors who have done more then one martial arts I mean teachers who have done quite a few years in each art they had chosen.
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My point was that it is not good enough to just jump from art to art - and many many defense instructors do this. I was just highlighting this as a word of caution.
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MMA does not train in a set catalogue of techniques as you have stated. MMA are arts that instructors have spent many years in and put together or arts that they had learnt together.This however doesn't mean that things aren't always being added by instructors experience
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If you look to a MMA gym in most cases the techniques will be based on MT, BJJ or similar, and thats about it. MMA's MAINLY train for their fighting format - this format favors the arts that most MMA's train in. I am not saying that this isn’t effective - it generally is very effective - but less so than most believe when talking about street.
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Once again I agree guys who have gone from style to style picking up a few techniques there and there don't have much knowledge or skills as someone who has spent a few years in one art but those who have spent many years in each art they have done have way more experience then someone,who has spent many years in only one style and refuses to try other styles.
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I 'technically' am a MMA i have trained in various systems to a high degree, BUT they have all been traditional systems not modern systems, as i have stated i have Not seen anything in modern combat systems that is not present in traditional systems - most of it has just been repackaged.
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Here is where I disagree because very few martial artist styles have enough techniques in their style to produce good fighters outside of martial arts or at least outside of their own art, however some styles are more practical then others.
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I know that there are some styles don’t have the necessary skills. But there are styles that have standup striking, ground fighting etc as part of their traditional syllabus. Ba gua would be one of these. I do agree that mixing knowledge and abilities in all ranges of combat are applicable. BUT I think that unless you are extremely gifted the ability to train in multiple systems and UNDERSTAND them is VERY very hard!!!!!!
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Kali is effective against another guy with a similar weapon or someone with no weapon it won't work against all weapons.
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Kali is also an unarmed system i think.
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You claim that Traditional arts do not teach useless stances,okay then name one stance in karate that is useful and exactly how ? Then I'll give you my opinion.If you can convince me then I'll let you know if I agree or not.
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OK! when you train in muay thai you learn a basic stance from which to execute your techniques. (at least i did). you learn how to move in that stance etc. In Karate you learn basic stances, you learn how to move from stance to stance. You learn stances deep, but when you apply them - you do them shallow - not unlike a muay thai stance. If you learned different then your teacher had little understanding of fighting with traditional karate. When fighting with karate - the stances are NOT long, elongated stances they are short mobile stances, the deep stances teach your body to work effectively in all stance ranges above the lowest denominator - they don’t teach you to fight at this level.
Traditional arts in general. This is impossible to say what stances are effective what are not. The variation in stance between the massive array of traditional Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Filipino fighting systems is too large to even compare them. Needless to say, there ARE strong stable stances for stand up grappling, there ARE extremely mobile stances for striking - you just haven’t experienced them based on your experience with Karate - NOT traditional systems as a whole.
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I would like to know why you refer to martial artists who fight in a ring as a fighing in ring sport instead of fighting in a martial arts being done in the ring ? Just because we fight in a ring doesn't make us more of a sport then a martial arts.We are a full contact martial arts not a full contact ring sport we just happen to fight in a ring.
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No problem. If we take Muay thai. You wear boxing gloves, you have regulations, rules, a set area to fight in, a ref, a medical support team, banned techniques, etc. NONE i repeat NONE of these are there in a street fight. Hence the relative application of ring sports to real street combat is not there to a point. Also by point scoring arts i am talking about full contact formats. All / most formats now have point scoring. Not talking about tappy tappy karate.
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Why would you even bother to mention women in Muay Thai punching you wouldn't hurt you?,I'd certainly hope not or you'd be one wimpy guy since men are supposed to be naturally stronger then women.
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My point exactly. I was responding to your comments on certain arts being more effective, my point was that it is dependant on your situation, gender, size etc.
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You know traditionalist who can fight multiple attackers!!!!!!!!!!!! I really doubt that,so you're saying that if 5 or 20 guys jumped him at one time he'd survive ?
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Multiple means above one and YES I HAVE defended myself against multiple assailants.
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however I assumed you would have understood that by traditional I meant arts that do forms and don't change or not much anyways with the times,because to change would to be going against what their masters and masters before them had taught which in many arts is considered wrong.
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So your NOT talking about traditional martial arts then!!! geez! you have a beef with this sort of KARATE school (as would i) - fine - but traditional arts are NOT all like this! My traditional Internal Chinese arts teacher wont let me call him anything other than his name - not sensei, no sifu just his name - doesn’t sound very much like what you outline above does it!
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I know traditionalists train for multiple attackers but would that training really work on street? Absolutely not, because most if not all people will suddenly freeze in a real situation
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Man o man you went to an appalling school!
Our multiple attack training starts with 2 people attacking simultaneously as they wish. It ends with 8 opponents attacking simultaneously as they wish.
the link below is basically a ba gua guy doing a multiple attack DRILL - it shows movement mainly, each slap is taken as a strike. The purpose here is not real combat - it is A DRILL.
http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/..._attackers.WMV
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There is a difference between training against multiple attackers and actually being able to apply it on street.
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I agree.
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Yes Muay Thai is a traditonal martial arts you are right,because it has a long history,however I assumed you would have understood that by traditional I meant arts that do forms and don't change or not much anyways with the times,because to change would to be going against what their masters and masters before them had taught which in many arts is considered wrong. I simply think it is wrong not to change the art if can be changed and improved on especially in these days.
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Of course i wouldn’t have assumed this - i am a traditional artists - it is not true of any of the arts i practice - we learn a solid basics then move to fighting theory and principles, applying it - form, air punching based styles are a fairly modern phenomena.
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Do you not believe that most fights end on the ground ?
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in my professional experience as a doorman IMO NO they do not all end up on the ground - i would say 20 %. And i know that it would be suicide for me to go to ground when working - i would either get bottled, stabbed or have my head taken of by a boot!
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Everything as seen in UFC would work on street,although not a real fight it is the next best thing to one and is as close as you will get to a real fight.
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O .....K .... so you think rolling on the floor for a couple of minutes searching for an armbar or choke is a good street strategy! oh dear. fantasy land! I have said - many techniques are VERY applicable - but MANY are not applicable at all.
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Not many,because it is mostly traditional weapons, I can't imagine a person walking the streets with some huge sword on his back or carrying nunchuks with him and no one carries tonfas or sais with them.I think the bo is realistic however because a piece of wood lying on street can be used in same way as a staff against just about any commonly used weapon on street accept against a gun of course.
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Uhh? - what about knives?
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The TMA's who train hard daily do become excellent fighters but only against their own style or other TMA's but won't last against someone trained in MMA.
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I thought this was a self defense thread - not a vs. one - especially a sport format vs. no format thread!
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It shows you have trained mostly TMA because of your lack of knowledge of MMA and saying it is not relevant to street combat.
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It sounds like your lack of knowledge in TMAs has tainted your view also.
I have trained MT etc and have several MMA colleagues - nothing they have demonstrated has changed my opinion of my training - i have been effective in reality on the streets, in the clubs and pubs, this is more important to me than trying to prove something to a MMAist in the ring.
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You're funny,I don't know anything about traditional arts!!!!!!!!!! No of course not I only spent 12yrs. doing it,sarcasm.
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You have 12 yrs in Karate - Japanese karate at that - which was modified heavily. You tar all TMA's with the brush of one style - one school - i don’t think you have done ANY TMA's. From someone that has trained in many Traditional systems - all of which are flexible and applicable today.
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Yes I am saying arts like Judo and Aikido are more applicable then arts before them except for MuayThai.
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you really are funny - arts that preceded these arts had ALL the techniques contained within them BUT also had striking and more dangerous throwing methods - does this not make them more effective?
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Just because an art has been around longer doesn't mean it is better.
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Agreed and many traditional methods are now NOT applicable to combat - they are Martial ways and have different focuses than combat.
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the same is with martial arts in the sense that some have improved and others like TMA's have stuck to tradition and are no longer any good, because they are so out dated.
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But the starter motor is still there -
My point is that the reason that many traditional systems dont change is because they dont need to - arts like ba gua produce effective fluid, spontanious fighters with skill to deal with anything - they are not based in tradition but in combat - combat changes very little.
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So age of something has nothing to do with the art.
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But the assumption you have is that something is outdated or irrelevant if it has a history. Quite simply it isn’t.
As you have said - Age has nothing to do with the art.
Your view off KARATE may be accurate but so far you have NOT talked about TMA’s you have talked ABOUT KARATE.
my 2 cents.