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Shoot · 09-30-2004, 06:55 PM

My first post here. I study BJJ/Submission wrestling (no gi stuff). Judo was used as another word for JuJitsu until about the 1950s. Judo was supposed to be the best from various JJJ schools in Japan for a complete system of all JJJ. After WWII Judo became a sport. As a sport Judo stresses "throws" versus wrestling style takedowns. Although technically a "takedown" may be a throw I'll use these terms differently here. Judo throws are categorized in 2 categories: sacrifices where you go to the ground with your opponent and ones where you remain standing and the opponent is on the ground, such as hip throws. Judo favours the non-sacrifice throws. "Takedowns" as used in western wrestling largely involve picking a person up as in a double leg takedown or a suplex and putting them on the ground under control. Judo is very well organized and is a complete martial art that has a very well developed ground game (at least on paper so to speak). However, as a practical matter Judo largely became a throwing game. However, now that BJJ is so popular many Judo schools are bringing back their "newaza" --ground techniques. My criticism of Judo throws (I prefer western wrestling takedowns) is that they often rely on a high center of gravity as in someone standing almost straight up. Most people instinctively sprawl when clinching making Judo throws very difficult. Also, Judo throws takes years and years of practice to become really effective IMO but when learned can be devestating.

Western wrestling goes back thousands of years. At one point wrestling was submission wrestling and very brutal but over years became a game of pinning. The reason for stressing the pin was that once someone was pinned they couuld be easily killed and wrestlers always fought for position first before they sunk in their submission, crank, crush, stretch etc... Wrestling theory is somewhat different from Japanese "wrestling"--Judo or JJJ. Judo and Wrestling both use the principle of leverage and are "soft" arts, however wrestling theory probably relies more on control and completely overwhelming the opponent. Judo/JJJ was designed to level the playing field for smaller practicioners (and it does when used properly) whereas wrestling capitalizes on using a the wrestler's speed and strength to completely overpower, overwhelm, and CONTROL. Wrestlers throughout history, going back to Greece and before, were the strongest people on earth. Compare that to BJJers who have had great success with very normal, everyday builds. Wrestling favors takedowns (except for Greco-Roman which looks a lot like Judo without a Gi) whereby the wrestler either shoots or clinches, takes control of the opponent's center of gravity and then topples or in some cases "slams" the opponent to the ground. If Judoka are masters of "throwing" then Wrestlers are masters of takedowns. Unlike BJJers who want to go to the ground as long as they can at least start from the guard, Wrestlers resist being taken to the ground for the most part. Wrestlers want to take their opponent to the ground, not be put there. Wrestling theory heavily stresses and involves positional dominance--favoring the pin. When wrestling changed to a sport of pinning and submissions were removed, the game changed to the point of a flaw. I personally really like the wrestling standing game of the takedown, but the ground game is really lacking in that it is ok to flop to the stomach but not ok to flop to your back in the sport of wrestling. Wrestling also involves many more painful holds that are not necessarily submissions, such as headlocks, nelsons, bear hugs, cranks, twists, and stretches. Many wrestling holds are not used in JJJ/Judo/BJJ as some involve brute strength to be effective which kinda goes against the leverage principle heavily stressed in JJJ. For example, you'll rarely see a BJJer try to bear hug or scissor lock the breath out of someone or put someone in a side headlock. "Hook" or "Catch" wrestling is an American style of submission wrestling, but again break down positions (exposing the back) are seen because the pin is a win. It is hard to ever tell whether anything like the guard was ever used in ancient wrestling. I know of one style of mid-eastern wrestling that uses a scissor lock position that is something like the guard, but that's about it. Again, wrestling is largely a "top" game.

BJJ has an incredibly developed ground game and a very well developed guard that allows smaller practicioners to defeat much larger opponents. Although BJJ involves obtaining positional dominance, as a matter of practice it is not as overwhelmingly smothering as wrestling (usually). BJJ schools often don't spend much time on takedowns as they just want to get to the ground and that is pretty easy to do if you favor the guard. Compare t hat to wrestling where takedowns are practiced like crazy. BJJers often heavily use the guard whereas modern wrestlers in MMA competition usually use it begrudgingly as a transitional position to save themselves from being pinned and struck etc.... Whereas Judoka are the masters of throwing, and wrestlers are the masters of takedowns, holds and pins, BJJers are masters of submissions. IMO one of the weaknesses of many BJJers is that they often rely on submissions to a fault. One of the things I see in my study of BJJ and in "rolling" is that people just fire submission attempt one after another until they get one. This may work for them a certain percentage of time and so they become reliant on it. BJJers may find that if they try to submit someone say 12 times one might stick. I also see a lot of BJJers forcing submissions. How many times have my fellow BJJ brothers had to fight off triangle attempts where their opponent is using all their strength to force those legs around and squeeze when they just don't have it. As people become more aware of submissions and how to prevent them or escape them, this rapid fire submission attempt game loses effectiveness.

My personal favorite is what is currently developing among grapplers, "submission wrestling". Submission grappling is the best of wrestling -- the takedowns and strategy of overwhelming dominance and stressing of position, and the best of BJJ--the ground positions and submissions. THe subtle difference IMO is that in Submission Wrestling ground position is heavily stressed. BJJ is supposed to be "position then submission" but as I've said BJJ is often practiced as "pull guard and try to force submissions." The really good BJJers don't do that of course, but you have be careful where you study so as not to pick up that habit. Also, submission wrestling does not rely on the gi which drastically changes the game. One more subtle difference between submission wrestling and BJJ is technique learning and learning of principles. Traditional JJJ was taught by "wazas" or a series of techniques..if he does this, I do that etc... BJJ does a lot of that. I see BJJers learning 10 different sweeps, reversals, passes etc... when in reality they may all be subtle variations on principles. This leads to the idea that BJJ has thousands of techniques,when in reality all combat relies on just a handful of principles. Wrestling is taught and learned much more on principles with personal variations. This is a difference with western martial arts in general IMO. Wrestlers often invent their own stuff that is really just personalized moves that are based on a handful of grappling principles. BJJ is learned more as a series of "wazas" as if every techniques should have its own name etc... Wrestling involves a lot of improvization IMO. I personally like that about wrestling and think BJJ is often made unnecessarily technical.

I won't discuss Sambo as I don't know enough about it.

These of course are gross generalizations. For example, I've seen Judo schools that develope their guard to the point of being like BJJ. So shop around and be careful not to end up somewhere where people are not technical in their grappling. Some places are full of ego and can be dangerous. Avoid places where people are greedy with their techniques and they just go to class to practice what they know and not really to learn with others. Be careful and enjoy whatever grappling style you choose.

09-30-2004, 06:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
Shoot Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 171 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Grappling style differences My first post here. I study BJJ/Submission wrestling (no gi stuff). Judo was used as another word for JuJitsu until about the 1950s. Judo was supposed to be the best from various JJJ schools in Japan for a complete system of all JJJ. After WWII Judo became a sport. As a sport Judo stresses "throws" versus wrestling style takedowns. Although technically a "takedown" may be a throw I'll use these terms differently here. Judo throws are categorized in 2 categories: sacrifices where you go to the ground with your opponent and ones where you remain standing and the opponent is on the ground, such as hip throws. Judo favours the non-sacrifice throws. "Takedowns" as used in western wrestling largely involve picking a person up as in a double leg takedown or a suplex and putting them on the ground under control. Judo is very well organized and is a complete martial art that has a very well developed ground game (at least on paper so to speak). However, as a practical matter Judo largely became a throwing game. However, now that BJJ is so popular many Judo schools are bringing back their "newaza" --ground techniques. My criticism of Judo throws (I prefer western wrestling takedowns) is that they often rely on a high center of gravity as in someone standing almost straight up. Most people instinctively sprawl when clinching making Judo throws very difficult. Also, Judo throws takes years and years of practice to become really effective IMO but when learned can be devestating. Western wrestling goes back thousands of years. At one point wrestling was submission wrestling and very brutal but over years became a game of pinning. The reason for stressing the pin was that once someone was pinned they couuld be easily killed and wrestlers always fought for position first before they sunk in their submission, crank, crush, stretch etc... Wrestling theory is somewhat different from Japanese "wrestling"--Judo or JJJ. Judo and Wrestling both use the principle of leverage and are "soft" arts, however wrestling theory probably relies more on control and completely overwhelming the opponent. Judo/JJJ was designed to level the playing field for smaller practicioners (and it does when used properly) whereas wrestling capitalizes on using a the wrestler's speed and strength to completely overpower, overwhelm, and CONTROL. Wrestlers throughout history, going back to Greece and before, were the strongest people on earth. Compare that to BJJers who have had great success with very normal, everyday builds. Wrestling favors takedowns (except for Greco-Roman which looks a lot like Judo without a Gi) whereby the wrestler either shoots or clinches, takes control of the opponent's center of gravity and then topples or in some cases "slams" the opponent to the ground. If Judoka are masters of "throwing" then Wrestlers are masters of takedowns. Unlike BJJers who want to go to the ground as long as they can at least start from the guard, Wrestlers resist being taken to the ground for the most part. Wrestlers want to take their opponent to the ground, not be put there. Wrestling theory heavily stresses and involves positional dominance--favoring the pin. When wrestling changed to a sport of pinning and submissions were removed, the game changed to the point of a flaw. I personally really like the wrestling standing game of the takedown, but the ground game is really lacking in that it is ok to flop to the stomach but not ok to flop to your back in the sport of wrestling. Wrestling also involves many more painful holds that are not necessarily submissions, such as headlocks, nelsons, bear hugs, cranks, twists, and stretches. Many wrestling holds are not used in JJJ/Judo/BJJ as some involve brute strength to be effective which kinda goes against the leverage principle heavily stressed in JJJ. For example, you'll rarely see a BJJer try to bear hug or scissor lock the breath out of someone or put someone in a side headlock. "Hook" or "Catch" wrestling is an American style of submission wrestling, but again break down positions (exposing the back) are seen because the pin is a win. It is hard to ever tell whether anything like the guard was ever used in ancient wrestling. I know of one style of mid-eastern wrestling that uses a scissor lock position that is something like the guard, but that's about it. Again, wrestling is largely a "top" game. BJJ has an incredibly developed ground game and a very well developed guard that allows smaller practicioners to defeat much larger opponents. Although BJJ involves obtaining positional dominance, as a matter of practice it is not as overwhelmingly smothering as wrestling (usually). BJJ schools often don't spend much time on takedowns as they just want to get to the ground and that is pretty easy to do if you favor the guard. Compare t hat to wrestling where takedowns are practiced like crazy. BJJers often heavily use the guard whereas modern wrestlers in MMA competition usually use it begrudgingly as a transitional position to save themselves from being pinned and struck etc.... Whereas Judoka are the masters of throwing, and wrestlers are the masters of takedowns, holds and pins, BJJers are masters of submissions. IMO one of the weaknesses of many BJJers is that they often rely on submissions to a fault. One of the things I see in my study of BJJ and in "rolling" is that people just fire submission attempt one after another until they get one. This may work for them a certain percentage of time and so they become reliant on it. BJJers may find that if they try to submit someone say 12 times one might stick. I also see a lot of BJJers forcing submissions. How many times have my fellow BJJ brothers had to fight off triangle attempts where their opponent is using all their strength to force those legs around and squeeze when they just don't have it. As people become more aware of submissions and how to prevent them or escape them, this rapid fire submission attempt game loses effectiveness. My personal favorite is what is currently developing among grapplers, "submission wrestling". Submission grappling is the best of wrestling -- the takedowns and strategy of overwhelming dominance and stressing of position, and the best of BJJ--the ground positions and submissions. THe subtle difference IMO is that in Submission Wrestling ground position is heavily stressed. BJJ is supposed to be "position then submission" but as I've said BJJ is often practiced as "pull guard and try to force submissions." The really good BJJers don't do that of course, but you have be careful where you study so as not to pick up that habit. Also, submission wrestling does not rely on the gi which drastically changes the game. One more subtle difference between submission wrestling and BJJ is technique learning and learning of principles. Traditional JJJ was taught by "wazas" or a series of techniques..if he does this, I do that etc... BJJ does a lot of that. I see BJJers learning 10 different sweeps, reversals, passes etc... when in reality they may all be subtle variations on principles. This leads to the idea that BJJ has thousands of techniques,when in reality all combat relies on just a handful of principles. Wrestling is taught and learned much more on principles with personal variations. This is a difference with western martial arts in general IMO. Wrestlers often invent their own stuff that is really just personalized moves that are based on a handful of grappling principles. BJJ is learned more as a series of "wazas" as if every techniques should have its own name etc... Wrestling involves a lot of improvization IMO. I personally like that about wrestling and think BJJ is often made unnecessarily technical. I won't discuss Sambo as I don't know enough about it. These of course are gross generalizations. For example, I've seen Judo schools that develope their guard to the point of being like BJJ. So shop around and be careful not to end up somewhere where people are not technical in their grappling. Some places are full of ego and can be dangerous. Avoid places where people are greedy with their techniques and they just go to class to practice what they know and not really to learn with others. Be careful and enjoy whatever grappling style you choose.