Deluxe Martial Arts Forums - View Single Post

Monkey · 03-07-2001, 09:43 AM

There is another serious fault in your post, and that is this idea about 'utilizing all three knuckles' to get 'maximum knuckle surface'.

Now, as an engineering student I can tell you that this is nonsense and you are just making up things on the spot without any scientific basis, for the sake of your argument that my punching method is faulty. In fact in reality, the relationship between surface area and 'power' or stress or surface pressure is opposite.

The larger the surface area, for the SAME FORCE, the LESS the material stress, i.e. the less the damage.
If your theory about getting maximum surface for maximum effect was true, then a hook kick with the top of the foot would do more damage than a hook kick with the toe of the shoe, and a palm would do more damage than a punch, and getting poked with a finger would hurt more than getting poked with a pin, and a slap to the eyes would do more damage than a finger jab to the eyes, and getting smacked on the neck with a club would do more damage than getting hit on the neck with an axe.

Now. The forearm, for the purpose of punching, has no need to move in a straight line and Wing Chun tries to conform its movement to such a straight line because it looks nice and it fits in with the centreline theory that they subscribe to. But it is counterproductive in many ways and produces unnecessary tension, here's why: for the purpose of punching, the forearm is a lever, just like the upper arm. The upper arm rotates around the shoulder joint, upwards. The forearm rotates downwards, around the elbow joint. The result should be that these two moments, or turning effects, combined will result in a striaght line motion of the fist, as if it was connected to a straight slider. But this has little to do with whether or not the forearm sits nicely on the centreline or not. That is a tactical consideration. You will note that of the photos you see of Bruce demonstrating his 'leading straight', towards the camera, his arm is extended straight from the shoulder to the point of supposed impact, which he denoted as being in front of his nose, on the centreline, for tactical purposes... but the path of the punch is not ALONG any sort of centreline. Yes, the elbow is down, so the fist is naturally orientated vertically, but that is because he saw no need to 'twist', because it does not generate any extra forward momentum in the punch and 'twisting' will only tense the shoulders which may or may not give the 'feel' of a more powerful punch.

I can see what you are arguing and these are all things that I am very aware of but I feel that your reasons for coming to your particular conclusions are faulty and you are just coming up with reasons to support the way you think is best without having basis in your reasons. I am not saying that your method is faulty. From what I understand it is more or less identical to mine, not that my method is without problems.

Now, to only practice 90 degree punching is fine for working on a bag, but what if the person is taller than you but you still want to hit their face. I mean you need to train how you fight and fight how you train to get best results, I think we could agree that that was a big part of Bruce Lee's martial art concept that we seem to subsribe to as a guide. So to change your punching method simply for the geometry of a bag so all your knuckles share the pressure of the impact is silly.

My PROBLEM is that my last knuckle is being conditioned more than the others, but I want to condition all of the last three. I have no problem hitting with all three in a punch, to a person's head, but on a flat vertical bag the last one hits first, at least for an upward angle punch. It is a simple problem and has nothing to do with most of the things you talked about.

The more I think about this the more I regret starting this thread because I am accepting that this is a problem with the design of this particular piece of equipment, not with my punching method or anybody elses. I guess it was not designed to be used without bag gloves. But I dont want to use bag gloves because there would be no conditioning, and if you look back to the last paragraph, and my original post, it was the conditioning side of things with regard to this equipment I was concerned about, NOT my method.

My solution that I am forming now would involve tying the bag slightly back and up to something, so that when I want to practice head punches, the angle will realistically represent that which I would use against a taller opponent, without having the problem of the last knuckle always hitting first.

Anyway, enough.
Peace

03-07-2001, 09:43 AM	#15 (permalink)
Monkey Novice Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 74 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is another serious fault in your post, and that is this idea about 'utilizing all three knuckles' to get 'maximum knuckle surface'. Now, as an engineering student I can tell you that this is nonsense and you are just making up things on the spot without any scientific basis, for the sake of your argument that my punching method is faulty. In fact in reality, the relationship between surface area and 'power' or stress or surface pressure is opposite. The larger the surface area, for the SAME FORCE, the LESS the material stress, i.e. the less the damage. If your theory about getting maximum surface for maximum effect was true, then a hook kick with the top of the foot would do more damage than a hook kick with the toe of the shoe, and a palm would do more damage than a punch, and getting poked with a finger would hurt more than getting poked with a pin, and a slap to the eyes would do more damage than a finger jab to the eyes, and getting smacked on the neck with a club would do more damage than getting hit on the neck with an axe. Now. The forearm, for the purpose of punching, has no need to move in a straight line and Wing Chun tries to conform its movement to such a straight line because it looks nice and it fits in with the centreline theory that they subscribe to. But it is counterproductive in many ways and produces unnecessary tension, here's why: for the purpose of punching, the forearm is a lever, just like the upper arm. The upper arm rotates around the shoulder joint, upwards. The forearm rotates downwards, around the elbow joint. The result should be that these two moments, or turning effects, combined will result in a striaght line motion of the fist, as if it was connected to a straight slider. But this has little to do with whether or not the forearm sits nicely on the centreline or not. That is a tactical consideration. You will note that of the photos you see of Bruce demonstrating his 'leading straight', towards the camera, his arm is extended straight from the shoulder to the point of supposed impact, which he denoted as being in front of his nose, on the centreline, for tactical purposes... but the path of the punch is not ALONG any sort of centreline. Yes, the elbow is down, so the fist is naturally orientated vertically, but that is because he saw no need to 'twist', because it does not generate any extra forward momentum in the punch and 'twisting' will only tense the shoulders which may or may not give the 'feel' of a more powerful punch. I can see what you are arguing and these are all things that I am very aware of but I feel that your reasons for coming to your particular conclusions are faulty and you are just coming up with reasons to support the way you think is best without having basis in your reasons. I am not saying that your method is faulty. From what I understand it is more or less identical to mine, not that my method is without problems. Now, to only practice 90 degree punching is fine for working on a bag, but what if the person is taller than you but you still want to hit their face. I mean you need to train how you fight and fight how you train to get best results, I think we could agree that that was a big part of Bruce Lee's martial art concept that we seem to subsribe to as a guide. So to change your punching method simply for the geometry of a bag so all your knuckles share the pressure of the impact is silly. My PROBLEM is that my last knuckle is being conditioned more than the others, but I want to condition all of the last three. I have no problem hitting with all three in a punch, to a person's head, but on a flat vertical bag the last one hits first, at least for an upward angle punch. It is a simple problem and has nothing to do with most of the things you talked about. The more I think about this the more I regret starting this thread because I am accepting that this is a problem with the design of this particular piece of equipment, not with my punching method or anybody elses. I guess it was not designed to be used without bag gloves. But I dont want to use bag gloves because there would be no conditioning, and if you look back to the last paragraph, and my original post, it was the conditioning side of things with regard to this equipment I was concerned about, NOT my method. My solution that I am forming now would involve tying the bag slightly back and up to something, so that when I want to practice head punches, the angle will realistically represent that which I would use against a taller opponent, without having the problem of the last knuckle always hitting first. Anyway, enough. Peace __________________ ________________________________ If ya say ya heard my rhymes We gonna have to fight Coz I just made the mother- ****ers up last night - DJ Run