Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McFatridge
Oma...I think you are getting Collegiate style wrestling mixed up with Real wrestling. Collegiate wrestling will have all the throws,takedowns, sweeps, armdrags and shoot in's but without the subs. If you want to talk about submissions then lets talk about real wrestling. I mean the wrestling that was being practiced in this country back in the early 1900's til today. Lets talk Catch Wrestling...Catch wrestling actually has far more subs than bjj ever thought about having and guess what it has the rear naked choke. Strangler Louis who was an old time catch wrestler use to choke people out all the time thats how he got the name. Once he got a hand on you he would pull you in close using an armdrag or other move then use his footwork to get behind you for the choke dropping you to the ground where he would then use his legs to trap your arms and it would be nite nite. I think the confusion comes when people talk about wrestling they usually think about collegiate wrestling which has no subs only pins. Do some research on Catch wrestling and you will be pretty amazed at what you find. Like I said I am not against bjj in anyway. I have trained in bjj for about 2years and have trained with several bjj instructors and it is great but it is IN NO WAY THE END ALL IN GROUND FIGHTING. I have trained in Catch Wrestling, Sambo, Shooto and Collar and Elbow wrestling with some of the best in the world and can tell you that there are advantages to these other arts that bjj does not have. In bjj you are constantly working position in order to get the submission...in Catch you are taught how to get the submissions with out being in the "perfect" position. In Sambo they teach you to stay close to your opponent to "leave no space" so when you are doing your submission they teach you to close the space which makes it harder for him to counter because there is no space for him to work. Collar and Elbow wrestling is great from the tie up because the drill you on this and teach you how to counter everything your opponent is trying to do. Now also let me say this...THE ART DOES NOT MAKE THE FIGHTER BUT THE FIGHTER MAKES THE ART. As I said before and as you are proving to be true Oma most bjj guys or atleast in my experience are the most close minded martial artist on the planet. Most of them will not admit that there maybe a better way of doing something or that maybe there is something out there to make them better. Instead they do like Royce and other Gracies have done in the past and just say "thats Brazilian Jiu Jitsu", or some other stupid thing like Rickson said in a magazine interview which was "all modern day grappling comes from Brazil, it all has its roots in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu." WTF is that about I know they are not that arrogant are they? Oh wait maybe they are because I remember and interview with Royce after he was choked out by Wallid Ishmail and he said that he really did not lose the fight because Wallid beat him with a BJJ technique so really he won because Wallid used one of his moves...so either way bjj won the fight. Yeah...ok. Good thing Matt Hughes did not go ahead and break his arm off in the UFC or Royce would be walking around with one arm all happy because he won that fight too.
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Ive never met a wrestler or seen one, look at matt hughes when he got caught by BJ Penn, even begin to know how to escape from a RNC, if they were taught how to apply it, then they'd be taught how to escape it. IM not buying wrestlers are taught that move, if so I go back to matt hughes who looked much like a white belt when he got caught in it. BUt maybe some forms or wrestling know it. So the college wrestling is what im thinking of, NO SUBS but pinning the guys shoulders, wow, thats a great move lol
BJJ isnt the end all or ground fighting, no one ever said it was, but it is the end all of grappling, period. No one wins the ADCC without BJJ, of that there is no dispute. FOr MMA, yes, you have to mix up the ground game for strikes, etc, and BJJ doesnt teach that, though Valu Tudo does, which is BJJ wihtout the GI and with strikes.
Keeping the opponent close and leaving no space is 100% BJJ, thats what they preach from day 1. NO room for the opponent to make space and get loose. But thats a principle of all ground control Im sure.
And where am I closed minded, I said the whole time you need to mix up the game for MMA? For grappling you don, BJJ owns the grappling world, ala Roger Gracie, Jacare,and Dean lister. Though Lister was a nation ranked college or high school wrestler at some point, it wasnt till he learned BJJ that he won the ADCC. Which is case and point for mixing up the game in MMA, Lister is a great wrestler and great BJJ guy.
Wallid chocked out Royce in what match, a BJJ match? I didnt see that, I believe it though, Wallid is great MMA and BJJ