Deluxe Martial Arts Forums - View Single Post - The difference between fighters and martial artists

darrianation · 01-08-2008, 07:23 PM

It is pretty simple really.

A couple of things come to mind a. you cannot separate the “mindset” from the fighter. Take away the “mindset” and you destroy the fighter. In other words you cannot separate the person from the fighter. b. the fighter only cares about WINNING and only the most efficient skills and tools will give him what he needs. The fighter does not care where those skills and tools come from as long as they are efficient and effective and he is always looking to improve those skills and tools and to make himself a better fighter.

The fighter does not fear the “wolf” because he knows what he is capable of and he knows what he is willing to do. A couple of factors:

1. The fighter is willing to escalate the violence further and faster than his opponent.
2. He has prepared himself for this day training his mind, body, skills, and tools in the most practical and contextually relevant methods.

Lets just call it what it is and leave the PC spin to the PC police. What makes him able to accept and train the things he does is that he is fully accepting of that fact that he is willing to kill other human beings if that is what it take to “win”. He does not want a tie, he does not want to simply survive, he wants to dominate the tactical arena and prevail 100% of the time. In fact, the fighter is an efficient killer because he has the mindset and the most efficient skills, and tools for the job.

The fighter will not care to get into a fist fight though, he has trained his HTH skills but those only come into play when he is unable for whatever the reason to access his weapons before the fight begins.

Here is where the martial artist will ask…what about unarmed fighting in Self Defense?

The way I look at unarmed fighting in self-defense, it is to be avoided if at all reasonably possible.

W.E. Fairbairn one of the principle architects of WWII combatives had this to say, "Unarmed combat is what we enter into when we have been foolish enough not to have a weapon; careless enough to lose our weapon, or unlucky enough to have broken our weapon. But in any case our first choice will be to use deadly weapons to finish off our opponent. Lacking those weapons; then our hands and feet will have to do."

The point to this is, unarmed combat is NOT the most efficient method for self-defense. Though, depending on the circumstances it can be effective, the only time it should be used is when you have no other superior alternatives given to you such as the use of weapons or escape. A self-defense situation happens when you have no reasonable choices left but to engage the enemy or run a reasonable risk of being severely injured or possibly killed. Therefore, your goal should be to eliminate the threat as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

Anyone who is serious about their self-defense training should be training to WIN in a no rules anything can happen event which more often than not (regardless of what people say) is unexpected sudden violent confrontation. Therefore, that person really should consider for the sake of efficiency and effectiveness what tactics will allow him to safely arm himself as quickly as possible during a confrontation. Employing force multipliers is a far faster, safer, and efficient means to end the fight than attempting to prevail through unarmed skills alone.

We have three primary fighting platforms at play here:

1. Tactical weapons-craft.
2. Combatives.
3. A hand to hand fighting method.

*Combatives is the frame on which the other two hinge on.

The most efficient and effective method tactically speaking is to “Go Strait To Guns” in the first place bypassing combatives and HTH methods altogether, combatives or HTH is only brought to bear when that option isn’t immediately available at the time.

Combatives is about taking the first 6-10 seconds to your exclusive advantage to wage an all-out asymmetrical assault on your opponent. But what if after those precious seconds your opponent is still standing in front of you and still fighting? At this point if both combatants are still standing and fighting the battle more often than not breaks down into symmetrical fighting much like a boxing match (only uglier). And what happens if your goal is not to destroy your opponent but to subdue him by less-then-lethal means?

The use of a weapon is lethal force and if you are in a true self-defense situation deadly force is warranted, and since combatives is characteristically a segue to weapons deployment it also must be considered a “lethal” response” as well. In the absence of the threat of possible serious injury or being killed, HTH is the best option for subduing a person when under those circumstances…and that is the only time it should be used.

You can still use less-than-lethal force multipliers such as OC spray (pepper spray) but always be prepared to back it up with something more substantial if it should fail to have the desired effect. Combining both (OC spray followed by HTH) is a much higher percentage solution than just using one.

To this end I really don’t think it matters which system, style, or art you train in they will all work as long as the practitioner trains hard and trains often because the physical attributes and skill will play a much greater role in the outcome. Remember, in unarmed fighting size, strength and skill play a more important roll in the outcome. Weapons with the willingness to use them can likely neutralize your opponent’s size, strength, age, advantages as well as many other disadvantages such as a multiple opponent situation, etc.

Personally I prefer something simple, something easy to learn, easy to retain and safe for the user. I would avoid any art, school, or system that:

• Brags about how many techniques they have.
• Consider themselves to be a “defensive” art only.
• Those who are excessively into kicking especially ones that espouse high kicks since they can leave the user venerable to counters and injury if the kick should miss or fail to KO the opponent plus they can take longer to learn and degrade quickly without constant practice.
• Techniques which rely heavily on constant practice and lose effectiveness rapidly without continuous maintenance.
• Techniques which rely on a high degree of athleticism and fine motor skill. There maybe those individuals who can effectively pull them off but most cannot readily achieve the same level of competence.

I would seek out schools that train with realistic pressure or utilize fully resisting sparring partners. Though, there are traditional martial art schools that train this way they are few and far between. Sports based systems do a better job, systems such as boxing, Muay Thai, or mixed martial arts train with resisting partners and will put your skill, brawn, stamina, and work ethic to the test which is what you want. I know some combative systems that incorporate many high percentage components from boxing or Muay Thai or Mixed martial arts into their curriculum….and by definition they should.

So, which martial arts would I recommend?

I like simple, the simpler the better (as long as it isn’t so simple it looses its robustness). I really like boxing because it a straight forward system and compared to other martial arts it is simpler to learn. But as a striking specialty it leaves you vulnerable if you should slip, fall, or get tackled to the ground with your opponent going down with you…in other words boxing leaves you with no options on the ground.

Even better is mixed martial arts or cage fighting because it offers well integrated multiple fighting platforms that utilizes striking, clinch fighting, and ground grappling submitting the opponent through striking, pounding, choking, and joint manipulations. I would look for schools that are more prone to the “sprawl and brawl” type rather then “submission” specialty schools.

You want something that requires a high level of physical strength and stamina. Something that will test your skills in a reasonably realistic manner meaning the other guy is trying to beat you. MMA fits that description perfectly.

Of course they are unarmed fighting specialists and do not offer options outside a specific set of tightly restricted parameters. Just remember why you are training and try as much as possible to put your unarmed training into its proper context. For example, if you have learned to hit hard, then you must learn to apply that impact in street-relevant situations. If you have learned a shoot-in, then you can shoot-in for the double leg takedown but instead of working for some kind of position progressing to a submission by joint lock or choke instead you find that the takedown opens up the opportunity to access your gun. Maybe you’ll learn that a knife is a great tool for getting to your feet when your opponent has you pinned to the ground.

Personally, I prefer the sprawl and brawl type of MMAs to the submission specialist types but if you get the chance to try this stuff out in realistic scenarios you’ll see what groups or chains of skills that will transfer over to a street-relevant platform and which ones won’t.

These are only guidelines I am not saying “Only MMA should be trained” what you choose to train in is up to you just remember why you are training.

Grappling in self-defense:

Don’t do it! If you find yourself on the ground with an opponent it better be because you tripped or slipped or somehow screwed up and got tackled to the ground but you better not be there because you intended it, bad things can happen there especially if your opponent has friends. Can you absolutely guarantee that one of those on lookers isn’t part of his entourage?

A few things to avoid on the ground:

• Do NOT cover up or rest on the bottom. You have to keep working for that escape, you have to scramble to get to your weapons or to get him off of you. Only bad things happen to those who get pinned to the ground in a fight…very bad things. If he is on top of you and you cant’ get him off then you are pinned, it doesn’t matter if you have him in your quarter guard, half, guard, or guard if he is on top and you can’t get up you are pinned.
• On the ground it is important to be in a dominant position to strike. Simply put you have to be the aggressor.

The important things to consider in an unarmed fighting method are:

1. Learn to hit hard, very hard. Hitting first is also important.
2. Learn how to deal with a clinch, when your opponent grabs on. The pummeling drill with knee work is excellent for training clinch fighting- but remember in the fight you can headbutt, bite, and scratch his eyes out.
3. Learn to regain your feet safely with an opponent standing over you and on top of you.
4. Learn to access your weapons from every conceivable position even with an opponent on top of you.
5. You should be dedicated to daily strength and conditioning work.

And remember, your HTH training is a subordinate skill-set to your gun and knife and not the other way around.

01-08-2008, 07:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
darrianation Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,161 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is pretty simple really. A couple of things come to mind a. you cannot separate the “mindset” from the fighter. Take away the “mindset” and you destroy the fighter. In other words you cannot separate the person from the fighter. b. the fighter only cares about WINNING and only the most efficient skills and tools will give him what he needs. The fighter does not care where those skills and tools come from as long as they are efficient and effective and he is always looking to improve those skills and tools and to make himself a better fighter. The fighter does not fear the “wolf” because he knows what he is capable of and he knows what he is willing to do. A couple of factors: 1. The fighter is willing to escalate the violence further and faster than his opponent. 2. He has prepared himself for this day training his mind, body, skills, and tools in the most practical and contextually relevant methods. Lets just call it what it is and leave the PC spin to the PC police. What makes him able to accept and train the things he does is that he is fully accepting of that fact that he is willing to kill other human beings if that is what it take to “win”. He does not want a tie, he does not want to simply survive, he wants to dominate the tactical arena and prevail 100% of the time. In fact, the fighter is an efficient killer because he has the mindset and the most efficient skills, and tools for the job. The fighter will not care to get into a fist fight though, he has trained his HTH skills but those only come into play when he is unable for whatever the reason to access his weapons before the fight begins. Here is where the martial artist will ask…what about unarmed fighting in Self Defense? The way I look at unarmed fighting in self-defense, it is to be avoided if at all reasonably possible. W.E. Fairbairn one of the principle architects of WWII combatives had this to say, "Unarmed combat is what we enter into when we have been foolish enough not to have a weapon; careless enough to lose our weapon, or unlucky enough to have broken our weapon. But in any case our first choice will be to use deadly weapons to finish off our opponent. Lacking those weapons; then our hands and feet will have to do." The point to this is, unarmed combat is NOT the most efficient method for self-defense. Though, depending on the circumstances it can be effective, the only time it should be used is when you have no other superior alternatives given to you such as the use of weapons or escape. A self-defense situation happens when you have no reasonable choices left but to engage the enemy or run a reasonable risk of being severely injured or possibly killed. Therefore, your goal should be to eliminate the threat as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Anyone who is serious about their self-defense training should be training to WIN in a no rules anything can happen event which more often than not (regardless of what people say) is unexpected sudden violent confrontation. Therefore, that person really should consider for the sake of efficiency and effectiveness what tactics will allow him to safely arm himself as quickly as possible during a confrontation. Employing force multipliers is a far faster, safer, and efficient means to end the fight than attempting to prevail through unarmed skills alone. We have three primary fighting platforms at play here: 1. Tactical weapons-craft. 2. Combatives. 3. A hand to hand fighting method. *Combatives is the frame on which the other two hinge on. The most efficient and effective method tactically speaking is to “Go Strait To Guns” in the first place bypassing combatives and HTH methods altogether, combatives or HTH is only brought to bear when that option isn’t immediately available at the time. Combatives is about taking the first 6-10 seconds to your exclusive advantage to wage an all-out asymmetrical assault on your opponent. But what if after those precious seconds your opponent is still standing in front of you and still fighting? At this point if both combatants are still standing and fighting the battle more often than not breaks down into symmetrical fighting much like a boxing match (only uglier). And what happens if your goal is not to destroy your opponent but to subdue him by less-then-lethal means? The use of a weapon is lethal force and if you are in a true self-defense situation deadly force is warranted, and since combatives is characteristically a segue to weapons deployment it also must be considered a “lethal” response” as well. In the absence of the threat of possible serious injury or being killed, HTH is the best option for subduing a person when under those circumstances…and that is the only time it should be used. You can still use less-than-lethal force multipliers such as OC spray (pepper spray) but always be prepared to back it up with something more substantial if it should fail to have the desired effect. Combining both (OC spray followed by HTH) is a much higher percentage solution than just using one. To this end I really don’t think it matters which system, style, or art you train in they will all work as long as the practitioner trains hard and trains often because the physical attributes and skill will play a much greater role in the outcome. Remember, in unarmed fighting size, strength and skill play a more important roll in the outcome. Weapons with the willingness to use them can likely neutralize your opponent’s size, strength, age, advantages as well as many other disadvantages such as a multiple opponent situation, etc. Personally I prefer something simple, something easy to learn, easy to retain and safe for the user. I would avoid any art, school, or system that: • Brags about how many techniques they have. • Consider themselves to be a “defensive” art only. • Those who are excessively into kicking especially ones that espouse high kicks since they can leave the user venerable to counters and injury if the kick should miss or fail to KO the opponent plus they can take longer to learn and degrade quickly without constant practice. • Techniques which rely heavily on constant practice and lose effectiveness rapidly without continuous maintenance. • Techniques which rely on a high degree of athleticism and fine motor skill. There maybe those individuals who can effectively pull them off but most cannot readily achieve the same level of competence. I would seek out schools that train with realistic pressure or utilize fully resisting sparring partners. Though, there are traditional martial art schools that train this way they are few and far between. Sports based systems do a better job, systems such as boxing, Muay Thai, or mixed martial arts train with resisting partners and will put your skill, brawn, stamina, and work ethic to the test which is what you want. I know some combative systems that incorporate many high percentage components from boxing or Muay Thai or Mixed martial arts into their curriculum….and by definition they should. So, which martial arts would I recommend? I like simple, the simpler the better (as long as it isn’t so simple it looses its robustness). I really like boxing because it a straight forward system and compared to other martial arts it is simpler to learn. But as a striking specialty it leaves you vulnerable if you should slip, fall, or get tackled to the ground with your opponent going down with you…in other words boxing leaves you with no options on the ground. Even better is mixed martial arts or cage fighting because it offers well integrated multiple fighting platforms that utilizes striking, clinch fighting, and ground grappling submitting the opponent through striking, pounding, choking, and joint manipulations. I would look for schools that are more prone to the “sprawl and brawl” type rather then “submission” specialty schools. You want something that requires a high level of physical strength and stamina. Something that will test your skills in a reasonably realistic manner meaning the other guy is trying to beat you. MMA fits that description perfectly. Of course they are unarmed fighting specialists and do not offer options outside a specific set of tightly restricted parameters. Just remember why you are training and try as much as possible to put your unarmed training into its proper context. For example, if you have learned to hit hard, then you must learn to apply that impact in street-relevant situations. If you have learned a shoot-in, then you can shoot-in for the double leg takedown but instead of working for some kind of position progressing to a submission by joint lock or choke instead you find that the takedown opens up the opportunity to access your gun. Maybe you’ll learn that a knife is a great tool for getting to your feet when your opponent has you pinned to the ground. Personally, I prefer the sprawl and brawl type of MMAs to the submission specialist types but if you get the chance to try this stuff out in realistic scenarios you’ll see what groups or chains of skills that will transfer over to a street-relevant platform and which ones won’t. These are only guidelines I am not saying “Only MMA should be trained” what you choose to train in is up to you just remember why you are training. Grappling in self-defense: Don’t do it! If you find yourself on the ground with an opponent it better be because you tripped or slipped or somehow screwed up and got tackled to the ground but you better not be there because you intended it, bad things can happen there especially if your opponent has friends. Can you absolutely guarantee that one of those on lookers isn’t part of his entourage? A few things to avoid on the ground: • Do NOT cover up or rest on the bottom. You have to keep working for that escape, you have to scramble to get to your weapons or to get him off of you. Only bad things happen to those who get pinned to the ground in a fight…very bad things. If he is on top of you and you cant’ get him off then you are pinned, it doesn’t matter if you have him in your quarter guard, half, guard, or guard if he is on top and you can’t get up you are pinned. • On the ground it is important to be in a dominant position to strike. Simply put you have to be the aggressor. The important things to consider in an unarmed fighting method are: 1. Learn to hit hard, very hard. Hitting first is also important. 2. Learn how to deal with a clinch, when your opponent grabs on. The pummeling drill with knee work is excellent for training clinch fighting- but remember in the fight you can headbutt, bite, and scratch his eyes out. 3. Learn to regain your feet safely with an opponent standing over you and on top of you. 4. Learn to access your weapons from every conceivable position even with an opponent on top of you. 5. You should be dedicated to daily strength and conditioning work. And remember, your HTH training is a subordinate skill-set to your gun and knife and not the other way around. __________________ The law of tyranny: 1. Any power that can be abused will be abused 2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it. 3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail. Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!