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Originally posted by wcskgh
i have seen some serak from that camp, and i mean no disrespect, but according to pa herman suwanda, they were missing many pieces to their serak,and some of the jurus were incomplete. i trust pa herman, because he never put anyone down,and he was like a treasure in indonesia.he never bad mouthed people, he just said that if what they are doing, is making them happy, then its ok. but the few serak jurus used in mande muda were different.
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OK ... I know the 18 Serak jurus as Pak Vic teaches them and I know the 6 Serak jurus that Pak Herman taught and I've been to several seminars with Ibu Rita teaching Serak. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Pak Herman, Ibu Rita, and Mande Muda (otherwise I wouldn't have spent hundreds of hours training at seminars with Pak Herman). The Serak jurus of the de Thouars and the Serak jurus of Mande Muda *are* different ... but it's also obvious that they share a common root.
"Missing many pieces"? Hmm ... the answer to that question (if there is one) is *way* above my head.
I'm sure Pak Herman had reasons for saying what he said ... but they could have been personal reasons ... happens to everyone. Without the context of Pak Herman's experience (and possibly the conversation in which you heard it said) it means next to nothing and, for everyone else here on the board, it's hearsay. My suggestion would be, rather than take what someone else says as gospel, go find out for yourself ... or don't bother spreading gossip.
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also, pa hermans father founded ipsi, and the title pendekar came from ipsi.
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OK ... I'm not sure what relevance that statement has to anything. But as far as I know, the title of "pendekar" was around before IPSI.
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silat can be very effective if practiced against american style fighting.
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Uh huh ... and Silat can be very effective against *any* one regardless of system.
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also, togkat is staff, and the people in other serak camps, bought all of suwandas tapes, then all of a sudden have new styles to teach. if whatever you learn makes you happy, your ok. but dont believe any american, or dutch guy say he is a master of cimunde, or some of the other arts, that are closely guarded. i have friends who were brought to cimunde village by suwanda, and they all said that the cimunde taught here is bogus.
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For someone who "means no disrespect" ... wow.
Pak Vic and his brothers were born and raised in Indonesia. Yes, "tongkat" means "staff." I've had some training in the staff work from Pak Herman ... everything I saw was from the Cikalong system. Pak Vic's "Tongkat" system is stick work based on Soempat, Pamoer, and Serak and, to the best of my knowledge, he began developing it before Pak Herman's videos. I doubt he's ever even seen Pak Herman's tongkat vids. Willem de Thouars, who is a practitioner of Cimande, learned it from his father-in-law, Carl Deerns ... who studied with Pak Atma in Indonesia. "Bogus" ... I think not.
There are many instructors of Cimande here in America who aren't "bogus." My instructor got his Cimande from Pak Herman and also visited the village of Cimande with Pak Herman. Rennie Saunders and Mushtaq Ali Shah incorporate Cimande into their system of Gerakan Suci ... both of them trained with Pak Herman and I'm sure Rennie visited the village of Cimande also. There's an Indonesian man on the east coast named Tristan who is a Cimande practitioner ... I have no doubt his Cimande is authentic.
Had your friends who visited the village seen *all* of the Cimande taught in America? Generalizations are dangerous.
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what i am saying is that there are more masters in the usa, than in the rest of the world, so be careful, people calling themselves masters should be taken with a grain of salt.
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This statement, I agree with completely. But if you're lumping the de Thouars brothers into this classification then you're way off base. If you're not lumping them into it, then I misinterpreted your post and apologize.
Mike