Who is truly a Boxing Master?

[Boxing Master]

Throughout the annals of boxing's history, there have been many great champions that were great fighters for their era, weight, etc. but were not true boxing masters.

Examples

1. Mike Tyson:

Once considered to be the "Baddest Man on the Planet," Mike Tyson is the comet that once illuminated across the sky of the boxing world, but has since faded almost into oblivion. A diminuitive man built like a small tank with explosive speed and bone crushing power. Trained under the late great boxing trainer, Cus D'Mato, Tyson turned from a project with phenemonal physical gifts into, to quote the character Micky from the "Rocky" film series, "a Wrecking Machine." Through the mid to late 1980's, Tyson dominated the heavyweight ranks like no one before him, becoming the youngest fighter to win the heavyweight title at the age of 20(1986). Using the Peek-a-Boo slugger style of former heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson. Often knocking opponents out within the first few rounds, Tyson was thought to be unbeatable. But then on one night in Tokyo the era of Iron Mike Tyson had ended. Outpunched and outclassed by his underdog opponent, James "Buster" Douglas, Tyson was soundly defeated and forever lost his title as the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. After his conviction on rape charges, Tyson returned to the world of boxing, mounted impressive victories even winning a portion of the title in 1996, leading up to his historic matchup with fellow heavyweight great, Evander Holyfield. The matchup that the boxing world had been waiting for finally had happened. Once again outclassed by a superior boxer in Holyfield in both of their matches, Tyson lashed out by biting the right ear of Holyfield, which resulted in a disqualification(I believe). Since then Tyson has only fought in several fights, the most high profile against former champion Lennox Lewis in Memphis, Tennessee in 2002. After an impressive first round, Tyson looked exhausted and intimidated by the champion, as Lewis gave him one of the worst beatings he had ever taken in his career. Tyson is now almost faded out in boxing today, now trying to get a career in the K-1 fighting circuit.

2. George Foreman

Probably the most devastating puncher in heavyweight history, "Big George" Foreman dominated the heavyweight ranks in the mid 1970's. After destroying Smokin' Joe Frazier other heavyweight contenders, Foreman took his title to Kinshasa, Zaire for his famous "Rumble in the Jungle" with the Greatest Heavyweight, and arguably the greatest boxer of all time, Muhammad Ali. Going in as the favorite, many thought the Foreman would utterly destroy the former champion, but Ali showed that still had tricks up sleeve as he unwielded his "Rope-A-Dope" strategy by lying on the ropes and letting Formean pound away on his arms and elbows. Conditioning was the main factor in this strategy, as Foreman had punched himself out of the fight by the eighth round, in which Ali capitalized by finishing him off with a dazzling 1-2 combination which sent Foreman collapsing on the canvas. He was not the same fighter after that defeat, but he would return to boxing later on in life, and probably pull off boxing greatest achievements, being the oldest fighter ever to win the heavyweight title at the age of 44 in 1992 against Michael Moorer. Now Forman is an announcer for HBO fight nights, and has his own grilling oven that has made millions.

3. Rocky Marciano

The "Brockton Blockbuster" was a tremendous puncher who could not only dish out great amounts of punishment, but take it greatly as well. Not known for being a boxing tactician, Marciano dominated skillfully superior opponents with his amazing power and granite like chin. He is the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated.

Great boxers:

Truly masters of their craft, these are some of the individuals that make boxing the "Sweet Science" that it is, and make it to the place where it should be considered on equal ground with other martial arts.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson

Considered to be pound for pound the best fighter that has ever lived, "Sugar" Ray Robinson is a true boxing master. Encompassing every physical gift that a boxer could ever ask for(blazing speed, devastating power, excellent conditioning), Robinson a used cunning ring tactics and soundly defeated some of the greatest boxers that have ever lived. He won the Middleweight crown five times and also dominated the welterweight division as well. He had fought 18 other world champions in his time, including Jake LaMotta, and Kid Gavilan.

2. Muhammad Ali

The self proclaimed "Greatest of All Time," Muhammad Ali proved to world that he is indeed not only one of its' greatest fighters, but also one of social figures. Using uncanny speed and boxing skill not normally seen in a heavyweight, Ali dominated the heavyweight division during the early to mid 1960's before his banishment due to his refusal for inductment into the U.S. military during the Vietnam War. Upon his return in 1970, Ali was thought to not have the skills he once had, but he adapted his fighting style from a lightning quick dancing master, to a carefully patient methodical attacker. Unlike many fighters who fight their best fights in their primes, Ali fought his best after his prime. From his three legendary fights with Smokin' Joe Frazier, to his historic over George Foreman in the "Rumble in the Jungle," onto his third heavyweight championship title win over Leon Spinks in 1978, Ali showed that no matter what the odds or circumstances, the better man with the better skill will come out on top.

3. Roy Jones Jr.

The best pound for pound fighter of this generation, Roy Jones Jr. brings back memories of the late great Sugar Ray Robinson. Possessing a seemingly endless myriad of boxing skills, Jones has won world titles at the Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, and Heavyweight classes. His only drawback is a lack of competition, until his showdown with Antonio Tarver in 2004. Noted to not be at 100% for the fight, Jones vowed that he would defeat Tarver in their rematch this May.

What skills are required to truly master the art and science of boxing?(Just my opinion, please feel free to add or detract if you would like.)

NOTE: I did not have all my information and ideas together when I did this thread, so please forgive me, I did this on the fly.

Goals
1. To hit and not get hit at will.
2. To control the fight, the opponent, the ring, and yourself at all times.

A. Physical gifts

1. Speed
2. Power
4. Stamina
5. Body durability(Chin, Midsection)
6. Arm Reach

B. Boxing Skills: Although not considered to be as technical or versatile as other fighting systems, boxing is truly a technical and scientific fighting style, encompassing multiple strikes and movements with multiple strategies in which to use them.

1. Mastery of different punches(With both hands to both the head and body, except Overhands)

Jabs
Crosses
Straight Punches
Hooks(Short, Long, Shovel, Haymaker)
Uppercuts(Regular, Bolo, Haymaker)
Overhands

2. Mastery of different styles/stances(Southpaw stance is not mentioned due to the need to master each stance with both hands)

Standard Boxer
Freestyle(Ali stance)
Crouching Slugger
Peek-A-Boo Slugger
Crab style
Other stances to be used depending on fighter's style.

Strategies
Offensive Fighting
Defensive Fighting(Counter Attacking, Rope-A-Dope, etc.)
Range Fighting
In Fighting(Slugging, Clinch fighting)

[U]3. Other Strikes[/u](Not legal in the boxing ring, but still useful in a self defense situation that real boxing trainers teach their fighters)

1. Elbows
2. Forearms
3. Headbutts
4. Shoulderbutts
4. Foot stomps

4. Footwork
Stepping(Short, Long, Forward, Sidestep, Backward)
Footshuffling
Pivoting

5. Blocks and Defensive Maneuvers
Bob
Weave
Slip
Leanback
Covering
Parrying

C. Intangibles: These are skills that are not neccessarily taught, but are internal within each and every fighter themselves that they use to overcome their opponent.

1. Desire
2. Heart
3. Will
4. Aggressiveness
5. Patience
6. Tenacity
7. Intelligence
8. Many more internal skills to name

[old skool dude]

Muhammad Ali
Master of movement, timing,tenacity...he had all the gifts. Best fight I ever saw was the Foreman fight. Thought for SURE he was gonna loose using that rope a dope strategy. In that fight he definitely showed me that he CAN take a punch, and that pain tolerance is a quality that a top fighter MUST have.

Roy Jones Junior
When I see Roy fight I almost want to call his fights "fixed" he shows such mastery over his opponents that his fights appear to be scripted. Roy is a master of broken rhythm that is one of his best attributes and he continually "breaks all the rules" of orthodox boxing to baffle his opponents.

Hector Commaco In his prime, I loved Hector commaco. He reminded me of a puerto rican Bruce lee. He was inhumanly fast, was relentless in his attack, and excellent defense, and he use to do a lot of "dirty tricks" that the ref just didnt see because he was so fast. Commaco had the knack of being able to literally spin his opponents like a top on some occassions and hit them from crazy angles as they were trying to figure out where he was.

Arron Pryer
A lot of folk forget how devestating a puncher pryor was. He was literally a perpetual motion machine and was the first boxer I saw who continuallly used the jkd Straight blast in his fights!! If you get an opportunity to see some of his films you will know what Im talking about. Pryor had a VERY unorthodox method of fighting He seemed to virtually have no defense, and yet he was able to beat one of the most talented defense/offense fighters of his time, namely, Alexis Arquello. One of Pryors major attributes was his tremedous fighting spirit. i saw one bout where he was knocked ont he ground, he LITERALLY did a back roll out, jumped back to his feet and RAN the guy down with a straight blast! Too bad he loved the pipe more than the ring....

Ken Norton.
Only because of what he did to ALi. Norton was the only boxer in my view who REALLY upset ALi's game plan. He was too unorthodox for Ali to really figure out, was responsible for "introducing" the overhand right, or haymaker into the ring, (which broke Ali's jaw) and used to fight out of that JKD guard!! Ya gotta love that!!! The first time I saw Norton use that stance I couldnt figure out WHY Ali couldnt hit him, because he looked so open!! Then I saw Bruce illustrate the same stance in Tao Of JKD and thought....Hmmm, did Ken Norton, read this book?.

[KONY]

Originally Posted by Boxing Master

Once again outclassed by a superior boxer in Holyfield in both of their matches, Tyson lashed out by biting the right ear of Holyfield, which resulted in a disqualification(I believe).

I hate the way the media demonized Tyson but not Holyfield after the ear-biting incident. My take on it was that Holyfield was employing dirty tactics (head-butting) that actually incited Tyson to bite his ear. Holyfield has turned into a dirty boxer in his old age. Need I remind everyone of what he did to Hasim Rahman? That was foul! I lost so much respect for Holyfield b/c of it. I really admired his heart (no pun intended due to Holyfield's much-publicized condition) in his younger days as he was always the smaller man in the heavyweight division. However, I guess he was always the media darling. The media even tried to turn Tyson-Holyfield into a Islam vs. Christianity thing. Stupid. IMO, I think neither was/is a good representative of their respective faiths. Back to that fight, Tyson was literally crying in the after-fight interview complaining of Holyfield's tactics. Anyone else agree/disagree with me? I can't be the only one.

[old skool dude]

Originally Posted by KONY

I hate the way the media demonized Tyson but not Holyfield after the ear-biting incident. My take on it was that Holyfield was employing dirty tactics (head-butting) that actually incited Tyson to bite his ear.

! I lost so much respect for Holyfield b/c of it. However, I guess he was always the media darling. The media even tried to turn Tyson-Holyfield into a Islam vs. Christianity thing. Stupid. IMO,

I think neither was/is a good representative of their respective faiths. Back to that fight, Tyson was literally crying in the after-fight interview complaining of Holyfield's tactics. Anyone else agree/disagree with me? I can't be the only one.

You have a number of interesting observations about Holyfield and Tyson, and while you are entitled to your opinion There's one in particular that got my attention> You wrote: That you disagreed with the way the media turned the Tyson Holyfield fight into a Christianity vs Islam thing. I am in agreement with that observation, but for you to say that neither was and IS??? a representative of their faiths I think thats a little presumptuous for you to say that based on how they've performed in the ring??? While in all fairness, it's safe to say that we all tend to judge people based on their behavior(and Tyson's HAS been pretty outrageous in and out of the ring) All God knows the struggles and attitudes of a person's heart, and there are many accounts in The Bible where even devout followers of Christ, and Yahweh (in the Old Testament) exhibited "questionable behavior" but nevertheless were men of faith.
I know that this is not a religious forum, and I apologize to those who feel this point should not be brought out, so, having said that, let me go on to your other comments.

You wrote that you guess Holyfield was always a "media darling" Well, if he was a so called media darling, it's because he earned their respect and attention. Compared to other fighters, Hoyfield was articulate, a family man, had a strong work ethic, and had a scientific approach to boxing and training. It's no wonder the media gravitated towards him. Tyson on the other hand, ( and by the way, I AM a fan of Tyson also, after all he came from my hometown of brooklyn! Did nothing but present himself as a thug and a criminal. Making comments like, "I want to eat his children" doesnt endear you to the media, it only makes you appear to be a madman. Tyson was supposed to be "boxing Royalty." He was the last great fighter trained by Cus D amato, and I always hoped that he would somehow carry Cus's legacy with dignity and honor, Call it sentimental,but for me, Tyson was supposed to be "the last jedi". What a dissapointment.

You wrote:
Holyfield was employing dirty tactics (head-butting) that actually incited Tyson to bite his ear.

The way I saw the fight, Tyson was gettin' his HYNIE WAXED and in order to "save face" or to solidify his street credibility (because it would have been mud had he not done this) he bit Holyfields ear. I also think he did it out of anger and frustration for not being able to get off his punches or get out of the way of Holyfields punches. I know that you probably have done some kickboxing or boxing yourself and headbutting is something that occurs in the heat of battle. Sometimes it's accidental as you may unintentially duck down as the same time your opponent does. Tyson was no rank amatuer. If he felt he was being fouled, there were other "more legal" things he could have done in retailiation as a ring progessional. He could have hit Holyfield with his inner or outher forearm, he could have "accidently" hit him with an elbow after "missing " a hook or uppercut. He could have jabbed and accidently stepped on his foot, he could have "accidently" palmed/thumbed him(Ali even loved to do that) But he did NONE of those things because he just couldnt get off. So he bit his ear like a big baby.
I've said enough here.

[thaibxr]

the head buts are not an excuse for biting off the poor guys ear but every fight ive watched since that fight with holyfield he does the same dirty bs when the guy is inside he headbutts every chance he gets.

[KONY]

old school,

Good points you raised. I guess my statements clearly show how I feel about the media. Holyfield has been slow to exit the boxing game and I think he's doing his legacy a disservice by continuing to box. I think that his resorting to foul tactics is a sign that he is too old to fight fair. However, I can never take anything away from what he has accomplished in the ring. As for religion, I have never been fond of this institution. This is why I hate when it is brought into any sport, but especially boxing since its very premise involves trading blows w/ a fellow man. I still don't get the "thanking God" speeches after a KO. I think I'm rambling now so I'll just stop there. Thaibxr, glad someone else sees Holyfields antics.

[Spanky]

mine would be Muhammad Ali because he was a smart boxer who could move well and hit hard

[old skool dude]

Originally Posted by Spanky

mine would be Muhammad Ali because he was a smart boxer who could move well and hit hard

I agree. Ali was a smart boxer alright, but even HE used so called "dirty" tactics in the ring. Theres a great book that just came out (kick me for not remembering the title! arrrgh!) on ALi. The book is told from the perspective of some of the opponents that he fought throughout his career, joe frazier, joe bugner, ken norton, etc. Many of these opponents speak about his "dirty" tactics, among them being his tendency to thumb his opponents in the eye, and also to literally "rest" his full weight on them while in a clinch which forced them to hold him up, thereby sapping their strenght, whild providing him rest. Ali also at times used a backfist in lieu of his job. I dont know if this is a "dirty" tactic per se, but its not a traditional boxing technique.

[old skool dude]

Originally Posted by KONY

old school,

Good points you raised. I guess my statements clearly show how I feel about the media. Holyfield has been slow to exit the boxing game and I think he's doing his legacy a disservice by continuing to box. I think that his resorting to foul tactics is a sign that he is too old to fight fair. However, I can never take anything away from what he has accomplished in the ring. As for religion, I have never been fond of this institution. This is why I hate when it is brought into any sport, but especially boxing since its very premise involves trading blows w/ a fellow man. I still don't get the "thanking God" speeches after a KO. I think I'm rambling now so I'll just stop there. Thaibxr, glad someone else sees Holyfields antics.

You make a good case in point. Being a dinosaur myself, at 43, As a man's youth begins to fade, he results to questionable tactics in order to win! I've even caught myself resulting to "foul" tactics when fighting with younger, faster, stronger opponents!! :O} To my "credit" I also teach the same tactics to my opponents!! That is, after I've successfully used it on them of course!
As for religion....you state you were never fond of this institution which accounts for your dissatisfaction when you hear athletes "thanking God" after a win. You're in good company for not being fond of the "institution" ( As an Institution, there's a lot to be NOT fond of!) you'd be surprised to find out just how many Christians are not fond of the "institution" themselves. Christ Himself, was not fond of the "institution" which is why he often clashed with the scribes, pharasees, and sadducces (the religious authorities) as recorded in the Bible. Athletes Thank God, because we are encouraged to, and commanded to in scripture. It is a sign of appreciation and respect. Much in the same way that an athlete gives thanks to his coach or trainers for helping him to hone his skills, and achieve victory. As Christians we give thanks and praise to God In whom we live and move and have our being.We do this in victory to acknowledge him, and also to remind us that we dont get to where we are by our own power. Even if you are not quote "religious" You also, dont get to where you are, by your "own power". While it is true that YOU do the roadwork, sparring, exercising etc. you owe your success to a variety of factors, your parents ( for giving you the genes that makes up your physical and emotionally body.) your coaches for training and teaching you, your sparring partners for honing your skills, You get the picture, by now I'm sure. So, thanking God is not a "bad" thing. It's just not your thing.....but it can be.

[jcmack]

I believe I saw someone rank Marciano below Foreman? That is crazy. Marciano was 10 times the fighter Foreman was. If Marciano had fought Ali instead of Foreman it would have been completely different. Rope a dope wouldn't work on Marciano. Marciano could punch his hardest through 14 rounds and still have enough power to knockout an opponent in the 15th round. He could break an arm if you tried to block him literally. Jack Dempsey even said that he could knock people out but they still got back up, but if Marciano knocked someone out, they usually wouldn't get back up.

[Chilly Dog]

Originally Posted by jcmack

I believe I saw someone rank Marciano below Foreman? That is crazy. Marciano was 10 times the fighter Foreman was. If Marciano had fought Ali instead of Foreman it would have been completely different. Rope a dope wouldn't work on Marciano. Marciano could punch his hardest through 14 rounds and still have enough power to knockout an opponent in the 15th round. He could break an arm if you tried to block him literally. Jack Dempsey even said that he could knock people out but they still got back up, but if Marciano knocked someone out, they usually wouldn't get back up.

That's true, it would have been a different fight had Ali fought Marciano. Ali wouldn't have needed eight rounds to score a knockout, nor would he have needed rope-a-dope.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Chilly Dog

That's true, it would have been a different fight had Ali fought Marciano. Ali wouldn't have needed eight rounds to score a knockout, nor would he have needed rope-a-dope.

Can you be so sure?

Marciano had a really low stance, which conveniently forced taller fighters to punch down on him. Even though he weighed 186, he was capable of one punch KOs against guys who were in the 230 weight bracket.

On top of that, he could take 12 rounds of punishment and still win in the last minute by KO

Ali had wonderful footwork and timing, so I'm not discounting him either but Ali had trouble with peekaboo fighters.

[Chilly Dog]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Can you be so sure?

Marciano had a really low stance, which conveniently forced taller fighters to punch down on him. Even though he weighed 186, he was capable of one pucn KOs against guys who were in the 230 weight bracket.

On top of that, he could take 12 rounds of punishment and still win in the last minute by KO

Ali had wonderful footwork and timing, so I'm not discounting him either.

No, I obviously can't be sure, and I'm not taking anything away from Marciano. I just believe that time -- and other agendas -- have caused people to overestimate his skills when comparing him to top fighters of other eras. I don't think he would have beaten either fighter in "The Rumble in the Jungle."

[Thai Bri]

I still cant believe that someone ca compare Tyson with Holyfield and come away thinking that people are being unfair to the criminal rapist biter.

Still, it takes all kinds to make a world.

[bbbb]

Has anyone heard of KOSTYA TZSYU!!