Question on origin of Western boxing

[Broadsword2004]

Hey, just wondering, but I think I remember that the boxing that like the Europeans and such did was that 'ole fashioned "put up your dukes" type of thing, you know, in the way in which no modern boxer would ever fight.

I think someone told me that modern western boxing originated off of the Filipino martial arts, which had the more effective boxing methods, which is what modern boxing uses.

Just wondering if that is true or not. It just randomly popped into my head as a question.

[Tom Yum]

Boxing is a martial art developed by western europeans, that based its principles off of fencing. It was used as a method of fighting when you lost your saber, but became a gentleman's sport or a method for high status guys to settle duels and disputes. I really don't know much more about its history from then on, except that its high, upright stances changed to looser, lower more rhythmic ones when it became big in the US as the system became more scientific, more competitive with different fighters with different builds.

European boxers today still tend to fight more upright and tighter compared to those of the US. It depends on where you go, I guess...

Any real boxing historians here?

[Shoot]

Obviously we all know that "boxing" existed in ancient greece, but it was unlike British boxing that we commonly call "boxing" or in the martial arts world, "western boxing." The sport of boxing developed from the tradition of pugilism (fighting with fists) that existed for hundreds of years in the British Islands. It's hard to say when Brits, Irish, Scottish, and other Celtic and germanic british fighters began using their fists in a scientific manner. In Greece and among rufians circular "swings" were used. Pugilism employed scientific linear strikes, and all circular strikes, except upper cuts to the extent they can be circular were regarded as inferior because of the compromise in balance and speed. Early pugilism was not limited to just throwing fists. In the British Isles several forms of wrestling existed. One was collar and elbow wrestling that was similar to judo. Pugilists studied and used these throws if someone tried to clinch them or take them down. This was called "dumping" an opponent and would be followed by some serious ground and pound action, such as stomps to the head (prior to rules and in street fights). Pugilists also used headbutts and shin rakes and stomps in the clinch as well as ear biting and gouging. Boxers also grabbed and punched, as in grabbing belts and hair to hold someone while they punched. They also "struck in chancery" which was punching someone while holding them in a side headlock (streetfigher style!). This was all eventually lost from boxing as it became a sport. James Figg, an Englishman in the mid-1700s was a master fencer, single stick fighter, and knife fighter boxing matches (as opposed to duels for honor or street fights) were held for betting. The matches started with cudgeling (single stick fighting) and then switched to boxing when "first blood" was drawn. People bet on "first blood" and then bet on the following boxing match. Figg based his system of fighting more on knife fighting than sword fighting but used concepts from both arts. Figg placed the weak side forward for blinding and stunning to set up the stabbing power arm as you do in knife fighting (unlike fencing where the strong side is forward holding the sword). Boxing largely employed the "falling step" and forward lunge as in fencing to gain power for the lead fist and then hip rotation for the straight right. The stance was different for many reasons. In early boxing matches prior to figg and for many years after, fighting was no holds barred. Boxing or pugilism was seen as a way of avoiding takedowns and getting killed on the ground. So, low crouch stances were adopted and kicking was not used or favored (unlike in French Boxing) so that the pugilist was more stable and could guard against takedowns (the low crouch was a defense agianst the shoot). the extended guard was used because there were no big gloves to use to cover the face as in modern boxing, so the forearms were extended for more effective parries, although bobbing and weaving were the best methods for defense. Also, as gloves were added and wrestling was removed from the sport of boxing, hooks were used more and boxers stood closer together. Early boxers who could also wrestle and fought by no rules stood very far apart by fighting standards and stalked each other more. Clinching was way more rare and avoided because it was dangerous for both fighters. Also, mad fllurries of punches were seen as unscientific and dangerous as you were likely to end up on the ground with a foot in your teeth if you just charged someone. So, it was no uncommon for matches to be long and cautious. You fight differently when you know you could very well die.

As rules were added to boxing to eventually eliminate wrestling from it the stance got higher for faster stick and move footwork and the guard got tighter as the gloves got bigger and afforded protection. It makes more sense to hold your fists close to your face when the fists have large cushions on them. The change in stance and guard was functional and a product of the addition of rules to boxing. So, in all Boxing comes from the tradition of celtic pugilism that could have been around for as long as the celtic peoples (it's hard to say as there is very little written record) and it evolved based on linear edged weopon combat theories and finally evolved into a sport like we have it today because of the removeal of wrestling and the rule against striking a downed man.

In all boxing is a hard martial art in offense and a somewhat soft martial art in defense, preferring avoiding strikes and takedowns instead of resisting them in attempt to throw the opponent's balance off. Kicking was seen as a compromise of balance, so it was not used, except in clinching where stomps were used. The British were aware of kicking but did not add it to boxing or use it. British pioneers in boxing corresponded with French Boxers who used kicking. As always, the British and French had differences in opinions. Hope this helps.

[HtTKar]

Great post Shoot.

[rabidpanda]

Wasn't the Cestus used a lot in ancient Greek pugilism?

[koto_ryu]

Excellent post Shoot, but there are a few points I have to disagree with.

Originally Posted by Shoot

Figg based his system of fighting more on knife fighting than sword fighting but used concepts from both arts.

It was actually more on the fencing aspects, hence where the straight punches come in. Boxing originally was done with as you said, the wide circular roundhouses we see in Hollywood all the time that originally the Greeks used to have in their boxing and pankration tournaments. Figg was the first to scientifically develop the straight punch, which he took from lunging with a sword, hence where the falling step came into play. Figg did take the stance from knife fighting, however.

fighting was no holds barred. Boxing or pugilism was seen as a way of avoiding takedowns and getting killed on the ground.

Very true, Figg advertised his boxing lessons as a way to deal with "ruffians" in the street so noble gentlemen could learn ways how to defend yourself.

Early boxers who could also wrestle and fought by no rules...

They did have a variety of different rules. Rounds varied differently as well in the beginning, as a round ended whenever a fighter took a knee or was knocked down but rose to the ten count. There was unlimited rounds and it would go as long as it would take until there was a winner (the longest match in history was an amazing 168 rounds!). The fight was considered over whenever a fighter could not rise to the count of 10 nor defend himself under his own power after 30 seconds. As for rules, eye gouges and fishhooks were strictly prohibited, and groin punches were legal but very much shunned upon (Jack Dempsey once got thumbed by one of his opponents (when you jab with your thumb out so you can poke them in the eye) and responded by uppercutting him right in the family jewels, winning the match).

Clinching was way more rare and avoided because it was dangerous for both fighters.

Clinching and wrestling were actually a major part of bare-knuckle boxing. You can only punch a guy in the head with bare knuckles for so long, so if there was not a quick knock out it often ended up as a wrestling match, though if they fell to the ground they were hoisted up and the round was over. Bare-knuckle boxers resorted to "chopper fists", hammer fists basically, in the later rounds and would often wrestle their opponents into positions where they could land powerful strikes with those chopper fists. Hair pulling was only used once effectively to my knowledge, Sailor Tom Sharky against a Jewish fighter with very long locks; after that most of them shaved their heads or kept their hair very short to avoid such a fate.

So, in all Boxing comes from the tradition of celtic pugilism...

The Celts were far from being the only civilization with pugilism. The Greeks are the oldest-known civilization to have pugilism as a sport, as you can see vases from thousands of years ago where they are fighting with bare fists. Pugilism was one of the few sports in the very first Olympic competitions.

I edited this out by accident but did want to add it. The usual bare-knuckle boxing stance back when had the lead leg forward and rear back as usual, but they were often more square and lower to the ground fighting from a crouch for the wrestling aspects. The lead hand was held out as normal but instead of tucked near the chin it was actually about a foot or so away from the body in a lead hand stance. The rear hand was still held by the jaw to protect it and be ready to land a straight if the situation arose.

As for the Cestus, the Greeks did not use the Cestus until after the Romans took over. Greeks originally used thin leather gloves that afforded practically no protection. The Romans were far more bloodthirsty and added in the cestus (a thick leather glove with sharp claws protruding over the knuckles) to their gladiator matches in the coliseums.

[Shoot]

Hey, I appreciate the reply and addition of information. I agree that Figg was the one who made boxing a science with linear strikes. I also agree that Figg used fencing's drop step lunge for the lead arm, but he also based the power arm strikes on the thrusting action of a short blade, such as a knife. I agree about the use of the low crouch. The low crouch was specifically for the danger of someone shooting or wrestling. Some of the early boxers had very low crouches and looked like some deep kung fu stances, either in a T stance or almost a side horse riding stance. I also agree about the "chopper" and your comments about the clinch. One point of clarification: Prior to Figg there were no rules. THen for some time after Figg there were no rules or rounds--a fallen or grounded man usually lost to being struck while down. Broughton added rounds and the rule to not hit a man while down. A round was determined by a knockdown. When these rules were added, clinch fighting became for prevelant I think. But, even before Broughton's rules clinch fighting was a major part of Boxing. I also agree that other races and cultures had pugilist traditions, but I think British pugilism and sword fighting were probably the major influence on Figg. Figg was an interesting man. I would also point out that Figg taught Boxing not just for sport, but as an actual martial art for gentlemen to handle "rufians" and thugs who liked to swing punches and wrestle their opponents to the ground. A lot can be learned from early boxing in the ways it handled the prospect of going to the ground.

Personally, I cross train, like most of us. But, I have actually started extending my lead as this is common in BJJ and can be adapted to a more extended boxing guard. I lose power in my left, but it helps me measure distance and affords better parries.

It's nice to see others who share in the interest of martial arts history.

[bbbb]

Hey- waddya think about -Anthony Mundine?
-Danny Green?

Cheer's bro.!!

[bbbb]

We do that- but we DO NOT !box on! That's considered a headache!

(Martial Art's being a personal interpretation and all!)!!!

We imagine an apple under our armpit's type thing/(guard).

(ahem!).

[speedbag]

A few Boxing history Links to read.

Boxing History Index
http://www.hickoksports.com/history/boxingix.shtml

Boxing History
http://www.boxing-history.ws/

Bareknuckles to Boxing
http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savat...n%20Boxing.htm


Boxing History, Notre Dame University Archives
http://www.sports.nd.edu/Boxing/boxing.html

Boxing Records Search
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=006522

hope it helps.

speed bag
http://www.speedbagcental.com

[Warrior189]

Back then ppl use to box in different ways. Like in Romans n Greece they use leather gloves to hit each other till one dies. In Sumerian or now we can Irag use to use wrestling n fist tactics, to defeat savage beast also to fight each other. Its all in this site. http://www.tqnyc.org/NYC00051/BOXING.htm