Zab Judah vs Miguel Cotto

[Uke]

Who do you guys pick to win?

I'm picking Zab Judah. I know he's faded in the mid rounds as of lately, but I think he's realized this and trained hard to make a really showing for this upcoming fight. He's really talented, but for some reason he gets sucked into brawling and a lot of macho shit.

I just plain don't like Miguel Cotto. He's not my kind of boxer. I'm looking for Zab to pull this one out. This one will hold anticipation for me. If Cotto loses, it won't be any real skin off of his back, but if Judah loses, then he falls into the category of a DeMarcus Corley. A gatekeeper if you will.

So, we'll see. Zab Judah Vs Miguel Cotto. Will the new and rising kid finally prove himself against formidable opposition? Or will the young veteran finally get his act together and show the world what he's really made of?

This is one to watch out for.

[fozzy40]

What don't you like about Cotto? I don't claim to know either of their careers all that well but I definitely think that Zab Judah is a great boxer, when he wants to be. I'm not sure if it's machismo or lack of discipline but it always seems like if he loses it's b/c of him vs the other guy beating him. The exception that I've seen has obviously Mayweather. I LOVE Cotto's body attack though!

[fozzy40]

From what I've seen, what seems to set Cotto apart from his opponents is that he is committed to his game plan:
- start slow and counter
- 2-5 body shots in Round 1
- double body shot output in rounds 2-4
- go for the kill when the hands start dropping

Mechanical? Yes and it seems to be effective. Beatable? Definitely.

Just my observations...

[Uke]

Originally Posted by fozzy40

What don't you like about Cotto? I don't claim to know either of their careers all that well but I definitely think that Zab Judah is a great boxer, when he wants to be. I'm not sure if it's machismo or lack of discipline but it always seems like if he loses it's b/c of him vs the other guy beating him. The exception that I've seen has obviously Mayweather. I LOVE Cotto's body attack though!

Apologies for the delayed response, fozzy40.

I don't like the hype that surrounds Cotto. He's been in serious trouble by a guy he was supposed to easily beat earlier on in his pro career. Not that this single fact makes him not likeable, but I feel as though he's gotten a huge reputation even though he hasn't fought anyone worth mentioning.

Also, I can't remember what it was, but something happened during the Cotto/Corley fight that turned me off to Cotto. If he actually fights a contender and wins, then I'll watch him, but as of now you can't name anyone significant that he's ever faced.

He's no Trinidad.

Let's see how well he does against Judah. The division is filled with talent from Margarito to Paul Williams to Clottey. Whoever wins should set up even better fights. The winner of Judah/Cotto should be placed in a round robin with those other three boxers. Talk about great match ups.

[Hardball]

Is that fight tomorrow?

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Hardball

Is that fight tomorrow?

Nah, its on the 9th. Next Saturday.

[hEmPY]

juda *

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

At long last, we agree completely.

We agree a lot the time if you really look at where we stand on most things. We agreed on Mayweather/DLH, despite the stupid tangents. We agreed on Calzaghe's status in terms of greatness as well. There are whole topics devoted to pointing out that we agree on many things.

Its just that when we disagree it gets heated, but I'm used to that.

Anyways, guys like Cotto are good for the sport. Maybe not Cotto himself, but guys like him. He's a boxer who is not skilled enough to put on boxing clinics like elite boxers, but he's game to bang and trade with other boxers, which appeals to the major crowd that don't appreciate boxing but just the pure violence of the event.

Now when you get a banger that doesn't lose too often and can manage to stay away from elite boxers and still maintain a large following, you've got yourself a product that's easy to market and easy to keep popular. A name comes to mind: Arturo Gatti. Gatti has losses, but not enough to make him a journeyman. He can fight other C level fighters and people will tune in because he gives a show. His first fight with Mickey Ward is legendary in terms of brawling and entertainment. Two guys willing to endure the attrition to show who's tougher and can go 12 rounds is a promoter's wet dream. Its rare, but its does happen.

Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales fit that criteria as well, but I'd rank Barrera as a B fighter and Morales as a C fighter. They gave tremendous showings, but notice that as soon as the money got bigger the fights got less physical? Same happened with Gatti and Ward. They still gave great shows but none topped the first bout.

If Cotto beats Judah he will have to find a foil that isn't too skilled but isn't too shabby either. If he can give us three fights like Gatti/Ward or Barrera/Morales, he will have made a smart move as far as moving toward building a legacy. He won't win any boxing skill awards because he's clearly not that skilled. He's not very fast. He's not overly powerful either. He is a plodder than finds good angles to connect with and once he hurts you, he's a strong finisher.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen him fight Hatton before he faced Judah. That way he'd be coming into this bout with some credibility had he won. I guess its a risk that his camp and promoter weren't willing to take.

So IMO they see Judah as a weak-willed individual who cannot keep his great talent together for 12 rounds and are counting on him falling apart.

-OR-

I think Judah may be a paid patsie. Think about it. Judah was to be the heir apparent to Kostay Tszyu when Tszyu was still great. That's saying a lot. Since getting caught in that match, he's never fought the same. He's not relaxed. He's always anxious and impetuous. And most of all, he doesn't listen to his corner AT ALL.

Is that the way a championship fighter makes his comeback from a huge disappointment? No. Even if he fails, he's got to come back to proper form and resume his winning ways by doing what put him at the top in the first place. Judah seems to do anything but that. He let's lesser boxers into the fight by toying around and mocking them. He drops his hands during the fight, sometimes even in close quarters. He is becoming the Demarcus Corley of the welterweight division. He's the guy you set a fight with to make your own fighter look good and gain some credibility.

There's no way that he should have lost to Spinks or Baldomir. He's clearly the superior boxer in almost every aspect. He's stronger, faster, has a better work rate and in many cases better trained. Had he kept up his work rate against Mayweather for just 3 more rounds he would have won that fight if he avoided getting knocked down or out. So what's Zab's deal? Is he getting paid to throw these fights? Or does he have a defect that he and his father have been able to conceal for this long?

His matches since Tszyu really beg that question.

In any case, I still feel Judah should pull this one out. His legacy is on the line and he's already made too many mistakes to afford another one. A loss here would make him have to ask himself if this is what he wants to do any more.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I think a lot of B and C fighters end up looking great when they're in the ring with someone that brings out their best. Mickey Ward and Gatti fit the "B" fighter label in my mind, but when they fought each other, it was definitely "A" level fighting. In many ways, when Ward fought Judah, it was an A level fight, even though Ward came up short. Styles make fights - but so do rivalries.

Even the Gatti-Ward trilogy, which I look at as a rivalry between friends, was world class entertainment (despite being a little technically lacking) because both fighters had pride, heart, and determination. I enjoy a technical boxing match, and I can appreciate someone like Winky, who works his game plan despite not being terribly exciting. But if I'm being totally honest, I want to see entertaining fights when I watch boxing or MMA. I want a twelve round highlight film with a last minute knockout to cap it all off. To me, Kelly Pavlik vs. Edison Miranda fit the bill for entertainment. Winky and, say, Hopkins would fit the bill for a technical fight that I could appreciate as a coach and as a boxer, but if I'm paying to see it, give me blood and guts.

Judah and Cotto could be a really fun fight to watch, because I think Cotto realizes that he needs a win against an A class fighter. Judah can be fun to watch when he takes a fight seriously, and I think he's probably taking this one seriously. He knows he can't have anymore suspensions, and he knows he needs to come back and be a convincing, effective professional boxer in front of the sanctioning bodies. If he has another incident like the fray at Mayweather/Judah, his career is over.

Whether or not Cotto is a great champion, whether or not he has the potential to be, this has the elements of a great, entertaining fight.

That is, assuming Cotto's chin holds...

See? We do often agree. I can't find a part of that post that isn't true.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I have to admit, I am looking forward to seeing if Cotto's chin holds. If it does, I look for Judah to get frustrated and start fighting dirty...

Same here, except I think that an unfair stigma on Judah. I believe the only time he's ever been accused of being dirty, out of frustration or otherwise, is against Mayweather. You're not the only one who holds Judah to that stigma, so don't take this as me attacking your personal opinion. Its just that everyone has a bad night.

Watch Trinidad against Fernando Vargas. He hit him in the nuts several times just as blatantly without having his head pulled down, yet nobody calls him a dirty fighter. I know Judah's incident looked bad, but hopefully we won't see that become a regular occurance in his matches.

If either wins, who do you think they should have to fight next?

Paul Williams?
Joshua Clottey?
Antonio Margarito?
Shane Mosley?

I personally still like the round robin idea, but if I had to pick the next opponent for the winner it would be Joshua Clottey. IMO, he's currently proved the most in this division. I feel as though he exposed Margarito as a limited slugger and gave him a closer fight than the scores reflected. At the end of that fight Margarito looked like the loser, but Clottey had injured his hand earlier on and couldn't sustain the impressive show he was putting on.

Paul Williams has been calling out Margarito, a man that claims everyone is ducking him, for what seems like forever. So they have business of their own.

Shane Mosley Vs Joshua Clottey would be a great match of attrition and speed. Lots of fireworks.

This division has built itself up for some stellar fights.

[hEmPY]

my favorite fighter loses again

[hEmPY]

Cotto TKO 11

[Uke]

I just heard. I haven't seen it, but I gotta say I'm a little surprised. I don't know what will become of Judah behind this loss. The win obviously went to the hungrier and more motivated fighter.

Even without having seen the fight, I'm a man of my word and I will give Miguel Cotto the respect he deserves. He's finally beaten a name fighter in boxing.

[hEmPY]

Judah was doin fine first 4 rounds

Then he started to take hits

Round 11 Judah falls, gets up, takes more hits, referee stops da fight


Cotto actually hit Judah twice with hard low blows

LOL

Judah was recoverin hardly

lololololoololololololol

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Uke, I agree with you. I will still reserve judgement on the quality of the win until I can see it on the free replay next weekend, though. Judah has a habit of not really showing up at times, and he is notorious for losing focus. that's not a negative, or an excuse to dilute Cotto's win. If anything, it is a testament to the areas Judah needs to improve if he's ever going to see th top again for any length of time.

Sounds like the better man won.

Mike Brewer, I'm going to say something and I'd like you to think about it before you answer so that you don't think I'm being harsh or rash:

Zab Judah needs to replace his father as his trainer.

Now I know a lot of guys who train under family call that kind of attitude disloyal or disrespectful, but the truth is that many fighters who train under their fathers could have done better if they would have used their brains instead of their hearts.

Tito Trinidad and Shane Mosley are perfect examples. Tito Trinidad could have beaten Hopkins IMO had he gone another route with his trainer. He's too one dimensional. A boxer can't fight every talent he meets the same way. And that's exactly what Trinidad did. Shane Mosley's father Jack had him "powerboxing" bigger and stronger opponents, an unwise move that even intermediate trainers would know better than to advise. Sure, powerboxing was great at lightweight, but as you rise in weight you slow down and your power doesn't always translate well. Jack should have seen that, and when he didn't he should have been replaced.

Zab Judah loves his father, as he should. He admires and to a degree fears him as well, as he should. He shouldn't however let his reverence for his father affect his judgement when it comes to the betterment of his career and skills. I believe that his father had taken him as far as he could before the Tszyu fight.

This is no knock on Yoel Judah. He seems to give all the right advice to his son, but when it becomes apparent that his son won't take his advice then he should tell his son to go find someone to train him that he'll listen to. Maybe the father/son bond has made Zab too comfortable and permits and even encourages his behavior. Maybe if he had a no nonsense trainer like Floyd Mayweather Sr, Buddy McGirt or Freddie Roach he wouldn't feel so comfortable not obeying his corners advice and instructions.

Zab clearly has the talent to beat the best. Hell, had he kept up his work-rate for just three more rounds he would have beaten Mayweather. His undoing is his lack of focus and his lack of conditioning. He gasses out in the middle rounds and lets his opponents back into the match. He doesn't pace himself well and he throws his entire arsenal out in the early rounds, and leaves little for later. That's why we often see him go into survival mode in his fights.

This last loss should serve as a wake up call that his camp needs a makeover. And that makeover should start with his head trainer, who happens to be his father. Then, he needs to get a new strength and agility coach. And lastly, he needs to do what Shane Mosley did to put himself back on track: Get a sports psychologist. They seem to be working well for so many athletes. I'll never forget that when Corrie Sanders knocked out Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds, and chalked it all up to his sports psychologist. This was at a time when Sanders was on his way out. Very impressive.

So in the end, if Zab Judah wants to remain in boxing and still create a legacy that's worth remembering, he's got to make some major changes. In his camp and within himself.