Boxing - A core martial art

[Socrates]

Hi everyone,

Just a couple of questions.

How revelant is boxing to the martial arts world?

And, how many of you consider it to be one of the core martial arts in practical self protection?

Look forward to your replies.

Socrates.


'Modern man is lost in the crowd and modern man is lost without the crowd.'

Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855).

[PentjackSilat]

I think boxing is definitely a must to know for any martial artist. The attributes of flow and angling is a must. However, I think that there have to be certain upgrades made to the punching techniques when being applied to the street. Hitting someone with a closed fist square on their jaw or forehead has a good chance of giving you a broken hand. Opening your jab to a finger jab seems best to me. The jab is not supposed to be powerful anyhow...but quick. This facilitates the use of a finger jab instead of a closed fist. An open palm smash using cross mechanics is also quite powerful, and safer for your metatarpals. Bitch slapping someone with hook mechanics is also quite a stinger. I do think there are times when the closed fist is best used. For instance, when hitting softer targets like the throat and neck, ribs and stomach, inside of arms and groin. I also think that a hammer fist is a good addition to the art. My theory is basically, don't hit hard targets with a closed fist. Here is an experiment:
Go to a brick wall, close your fist and hit it as hard as you can with your most powerful cross. Now open your hand (if you haven't broken it from the cross) and, using the same cross mechanics, smash your palm into the wall. Now, close your fist again and instead of smashing your knuckles into the wall, hit the edge of your hand, the hammerfist not the backfist, into the wall. (That is the part of your hand that is on the opposite side of your thumb.)
The movement in boxing is also superior to most martial arts. (Except the bob and weave in my opinion. When knees are involved it is too dangerous in my opinion.) The emphasis on lateral movement, timing, and setting up your shots is something that any and every martial art is severely lacking, and is in dire need of edification in.
The boxing stance allows the most power to be delivered into the punches, and no other art even comes close to this amount of power. However, the legs are extremely vulnerable to leg kicks. This is the major downfall of the stance. I have, many a times, destroyed boxers with Thai Kicks to the thighs over and over and over and over and over again.
The infighting of boxing is good to add to a repertoire, but not complete. Elbows are more destructive and more efficient in this range. Also throwing is also much more effective and damaging than both the previous; in that the ground smashing against every part of your body at once, hurts more than the point of my elbow in the face or fist in the ribs. And since you are always broken up from the clinch and not allowed to fight in this...this really detracts from any prowess in that range.
In conclusion, boxing is a must to know...but the distinction must be made that as boxing stands right now, it is not a steet art and must be incorporated into other things to make them more effective. The pitfall that boxing has is excessive rules and regulations make it a highly limited ring sport.
This is just my opinion.

[verzejd]

I agree with the last post....boxing is a sport only, not a martial art. It is a an excellent way to work on attributes. What boxing gives you is what Matt Thorton (sp?) calls is "aliveness". It forces the person to deal with a real situation...not a real life combat scenario, but a situation where the boxer must deal with another person trying to knock him or her out. It forces the boxer to apply what he has learned in boxing or suffer a knock out or get hurt. In my experiences, my boxing background has allowed me to train better than someone who has not. Others I train with have never had to deal with someone trying to knock them out or have been hit with anything but half force. It has allowed me to deal with real life speed & fury, not forms or katas or slow motion. It reality-based, not in combat, but in combat speed.

Boxing is an important PART of a package. No more, no less.

[thekuntawman]

if your martial art uses the punch, then it is very necessary to learn to box, or at least learn to fight a boxer.

most people on the street is not going to fight you with the kind of punching that a karate man uses. his punches will probably be wild, or straight like a boxers. karate and kung fu punchings is based too much on the block against the single, controlled punch. in my opinion, there is nothing that prepares you better for dealing with a puncher.

but if your martial arts trains with boxing style fighting, and training, then it is not so important. but to many styles that practice against the stiff punch is setting up there fighters to get hurt (like JKD, wing chun, most hard style of karate). your training should answer the combination, not the single punch, because you will almost never going to face just one punch on the street unless it is a haymaker, and then the follow up will probably be a clinch or grab.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

I totally agree!

[EmptyneSs]

boxing can for sure be a great core art. because by saying core art, you are implying crosstraining as well. boxing aint complete, but it can give u a great base as a first art and it gets you in incredible shape. you learn to move very fast, attack in combinations, develope fast reflexes, develope defensive and evasive skills, learn to take hits and not close your eyes when attacked, you will learn to counter attacks, you will learn a wealth of information as it pertains to martial arts and self defense. everyone has to start somewere right? why not boxing? you cant learn everything all at once. and just look at the tao of jkd, theres so many concepts from boxing, especially those that pertain to movement, attacking in combinations, and evasive movements.

i myself train in boxing and mt, but i train in them for self defense. i chose these arts to train in for self defense not because they are they best or most complete systems, but because these arts would help me develope attributes i would need to one day be a good martial artist, as well as provide a great overal delivery system for me to add stuff to.

[danfaggella]

Boxing is a great sport. I agree, the conditioning and concepts from boxing are very crucial to punching ability. Sparring and boxing competition are full-contact, there is nothing hypothetical about it, you train you fight for real, great stuff.

[white devil]

verzejd: I agree with the last post....boxing is a sport only, not a martial art.

Since when?The tao of jeet kune do inspires itself heavily on Boxing (Basicaly on the book by Edwin Haislet)..In fact most of the ''more''traditional martial arts are reflected through boxing.Boxing is not traditional but it is indeed an art.In fact,much more dangerous than a few traditionals ones i wont mention.

It is a an excellent way to work on attributes. What boxing gives you is what Matt Thorton (sp?) calls is "aliveness".

is that it?id say it brings you everything every other martial art offer you..in fact could you please tell me something boxing doesnt offer (im talking about endurance,awareness,speed)?There is no flawless martial art.Boxers are vulnerable with the legs,very very strong with the upper-body,tae kwon do is the opposite,even the ''great'' muay thai has it's flaws.

It forces the person to deal with a real situation...not a real life combat scenario, but a situation where the boxer must deal with another person trying to knock him or her out.

what's the difference? doesnt the other drunk on the street wanna kock you out too? how is the fighting only happening in the ring?id like to see you face a well trained boxer..i have alot of martial artists friends (Wing chun,muay thai,kempo...)telling me how HARD it is to break a boxer's guard.

.

In my experiences, my boxing background has allowed me to train better than someone who has not. Others I train with have never had to deal with someone trying to knock them out or have been hit with anything but half force. It has allowed me to deal with real life speed & fury, not forms or katas or slow motion. It reality-based, not in combat, but in combat speed.

huh? combat speed? have you been only shadow boxing man? didnt you enhance your power through the heavybag?,develop your footwoork with the rope?enhance your hand-eye coordination with the speed/double end bag?didnt you develop heavily your stamina and endurance through roadwork and HIIT training?and how the hell is actual sparring not preparing you for real combat situation?????Boxing sparring is much more tougher and physicaly demanding than traditional competitions where i see people break off after the other guy barely touched him scoring a point!Boxing and muay thai is the roots of all the modern ''hybrid'' martial arts for a reason no?

but if your martial arts trains with boxing style fighting, and training, then it is not so important. but to many styles that practice against the stiff punch is setting up there fighters to get hurt (like JKD, wing chun, most hard style of karate). your training should answer the combination, not the single punch, because you will almost never going to face just one punch on the street unless it is a haymaker, and then the follow up will probably be a clinch or grab.

dude how many fights you been in?i havent seen many complex combinations happenin in street brawls.You always have to keep it simple,something boxing teaches you from the start,(so does JKD).

In fact,professional boxing is not that simple..its not all about one-two-hook-uppercuts ya know? im sick of amateurs thinkin boxing limits itself to that! dya know how to slip,bob,weave,parry,roll,counter perfectly ?dya know what a flicker is?do you actually know where to hit someone effectively?you know how to fight a taller man? how to fight a southpaw? a slugger? a croucher? a rusher? a counter-fighter? GEEZ THERE IS NOTHING MORE REALITY-BASED THAN BOXING(THAT IS AT LEAST NOT BASED PARTIALLY ON BOXING).

In conclusion, boxing is a must to know...but the distinction must be made that as boxing stands right now, it is not a steet art and must be incorporated into other things to make them more effective. The pitfall that boxing has is excessive rules and regulations make it a highly limited ring sport.
This is just my opinion.

indeed it is a must to know but there is no martial art that are actually STREET ARTS except hybrid martial arts such as jkd and senshido.boxing gives you the tools to fight on the ring with the rules! its your choice if you want to use thoses tools on the street but then youre gonna have to adapt your style to the street.(by that i mean you musnt bring the fight to the ground for example since you are not specially trained for it)you try to keep it medium range-stand up fighting.No need to learn fancy kicks and elbow locks..just adapt the fight to your hide weaknesses.

I think that there have to be certain upgrades made to the punching techniques when being applied to the street. Hitting someone with a closed fist square on their jaw or forehead has a good chance of giving you a broken hand

o.k well go throw any part of your body any martial art use (elbow,head,knee,shin..whatever you want) on a brick wall and tell me if it breaks!If by hitting the jaw you mean the chin than how the hell is that hard?we are specially trained to hit chins in boxing!!Why would you hit someone's forehead? i mean in any art that exists, who teaches you how to hit a forehead?Upgrades have to be made to me real-street-fighting based IN ALL NON-HYBRYD MARTIAL ARTS..not just boxing!

Opening your jab to a finger jab seems best to me. The jab is not supposed to be powerful anyhow...but quick. This facilitates the use of a finger jab instead of a closed fist

how is the jab quick but not powerful? power is the result of force(x)speed.the quicker the jab,the more powerful it is! What the hell would you finger jab besides the eyes?which is by the way..very dirty fighting

The infighting of boxing is good to add to a repertoire, but not complete. Elbows are more destructive and more efficient in this range

how do you use your elbows when your forehead is tucked on the oponent's breastbone(which is by the way the so called in-fighting)?only short hooks and uppercuts happen in in-fighting!

.

However, the legs are extremely vulnerable to leg kicks. This is the major downfall of the stance. I have, many a times, destroyed boxers with Thai Kicks to the thighs over and over and over and over and over again.

if we were street fighting,and i knew u were a thai boxer do you think i would let you hit my legs?not just because im a boxer i wont use my legs to block yours! its like saying its physically impossible to start a car without a driver liscence.

Boxing is an important PART of a package. No more, no less.

what else is there to the package besides the important part?

[Warrior189]

Some ppl think they know enough about boxing without any training or anything. Truthfully I'm tired of them thinking they know it all just by watching some PPV fights and thinking its all about punching. So I'm going to list some things I heard.

1. Boxing is easy and everyone can box in some degree.

-Boxing is not easy to learn. No one with boxing training cannot box like a boxer can. Its like saying I know karate, cause I know how to kick. Well its not true. You will have trouble with the basics of punches. EX. Learning how to throw a straight punch and not dropping it when returning it.

2. Boxers cant fight without gloves in the streets.

-OK thats the biggest bullshit. A boxer learns how to use their fist with or without gloves.

3. Boxers are limited in a street fight.

-True a boxer cant kick, or elbow their oppenents do to the rules they follow in the ring. Note I said ring not street fight. So if a boxer was in a street fight they would use what ever they have like every other ppl would do to win a fight. EX. MIke Tyson was in many street fights and used his tools to win.

4. Boxers cant handle Multiple oppenents.

-In the real world no one can handle multiple oppenents. This is not a movie where you can knock someone out with 1 hit n beat all 20 or 30 ppl to the ground. The most that anyone can handle is like 7-10 maybe.

5. If you train in boxing you will break all you knuckles easy.

-First the only way a boxer can break their knuckles is when they over do it. The same thing can happen to anyone who doesnt train in boxing. Second no matter what art you are doing, you have the same risk of breaking a leg as easy as breaking your knuckles.

6. Boxing teaches nothing but punching.

-Boxing does not only teach about punching.
Boxing teaches
How evade incoming attacks from every angle.
Shows how to find your distances between you n your oppenent.
It teaches you footwork
And much more.

7. Boxing only works when your big guy.

-To me boxing works much better when you are small guy. I say that is because, smaller boxers are quicker than the big guys and still packs a punch.

8. Boxing is an undiscplined art because you don't have belt rankings.

-Wrong boxing teaches alot of things physical and mental. Boxing teaches self discipline by making you stay on a diet. It teaches you never to drop your hands no matter how tired you are. Boxing makes you more aware and calm.

9. Boxing is mindless punching with gloves on.

-No, boxing has many techniques such as blocking,parrying,slipping,bobbing and weaving,jabs,hooks,crosses,uppercuts and much more.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Good posts! So instead of taking TKD or Karate as your first MA, it should do Boxing as a foundation for your striking arts. Then you can move to MT, TKD, etc.

[white devil]

what i meant was take boxing and stick to it..now unless youre so interested in fighting MMA than go ahead an complement it

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Ive found the basics on Boxing technique, its shttp://insideboxing.com/learntobox.htmlo awesome!
For people who dont know how to box, this is a good intro.!

[GQchris]

I'm reading an awesome book right now called "Championship Streetfighting" by Ned Beaumont, Ned is seriously Old School, no frills and at the beginning of the book bashes asian martial arts, but then he does give a nod to Bruce Lee and actual Martial Artists who can really fight.. he bashes American strip mall karate dojo's that don't really spar..

The book is about Boxing and uses methods from Boxing to Streetfighting.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Warrior189

.....
4. Boxers cant handle Multiple oppenents.

-In the real world no one can handle multiple oppenents. .....

You contradict yourself on point 4. I say put a knife in his hand and he can handle as many as care to get cut. But then you would just say he's "escalated the force" so someone else would just shoot him...

The human is a smart animal... They know when it's time to run away.