Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[Aaska]

There was one time I got badly beaten up by a western boxer on the ring. (even though he was bigger and heavier than I was, I gladly accepted the challenge... Neither kicking nor elbow strikes were allowed but hey! Loss is loss!)

Besides Muay Thai veterans, there are fighters that I feel uncomfortable in going against: good western boxers and good grapplers.

For numerous times in K-1 events, I have seen western boxers knocking out many kickboxers (Karate, Kung-Fu, TaeKwonDo, etc) and some MT fighters. I dare to say that many great KOs were done by punches in K-1.

I *personally* fear western boxers over other martial art stylists.

So who would win? In my opinion it would be the Thai boxer, but NEVER underestimate Boxers!

[smash]

50 kicks to the leg? Why would someone be so foolish to allow oneself that luxury? the point is to win with the least amount of energy with the most devastating effect. The kicking game's most negative by product is it tightens you up instead of being relaxed. In K-1 there are KO's scored by punches which don't have leverage behind it yet the fighter's go down.
The major difference in boxing against Asian MA is:
1) There are no masters, senseis, gurus that impart "secrets" to it's students.
2) If a technique is wrong it is immediately discarded. A scientific approach is used. Boxing is the sweet science. No mysterious secrets, just plain effective results
3)If you notice boxers fight in silent films era, they are straight up and hold their heads back. A kickboxer will have his chances at winning against these fighters. This style was deemed innefective and was discarded. By the time Joe Louis came along the modern boxer as we know it today came to fruition.
Karate, MT, TKD- they follow what is passed down from the Master/Guru without questioning if methods actually work. Duh, I mean, the student, the paying student just swallows it all out of
respect to Mr. Master!

[ryanhall]

Smash,
I have no idea how you can compare Muay Thai to karate or TKD.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by smash
The major difference in boxing against Asian MA is:
1) There are no masters, senseis, gurus that impart "secrets" to it's students.

WRONG... Every boxing coach/trainer implants his personal knowledge and you'd better listen up.

Originally posted by smash
2) If a technique is wrong it is immediately discarded. A scientific approach is used. Boxing is the sweet science. No mysterious secrets, just plain effective results

This is true of all things in life, not just Martial Arts or Boxing. There are plenty of boxing gyms stay traditional as there are MA schools. The only difference is that MA schools are so plentiful now and use their curriculum for monetary gains.

Originally posted by smash
3)If you notice boxers fight in silent films era, they are straight up and hold their heads back. A kickboxer will have his chances at winning against these fighters. This style was deemed innefective and was discarded. By the time Joe Louis came along the modern boxer as we know it today came to fruition.
Karate, MT, TKD- they follow what is passed down from the Master/Guru without questioning if methods actually work. Duh, I mean, the student, the paying student just swallows it all out of
respect to Mr. Master!

All things change, that is a constant truth. No martial art that exists today is entirely the same as it was 100 years ago. There are many things that must be accepted in all martial arts , including boxing. For instance, there is a right way to execute a jab and a right way to execute a round kick. You may personalize it later, but the core remains the same. It seems as though in Smash's boxing gym, the coach is a buddy buddy that doesn't mind what you do as long as it's comfortable... This was not so where I used to box (I train at home these days). My boxing coach was very articulate about technique and I seldom challenged his opinion, because he was a professional at one point. I'm just curious, Smash, do you question your coach and alter his methods a lot?

Go on smash. Take the challenge offered.

Put up or shut up.

[ryanhall]

Smash,
I suggest that you take Terry up on his offer to find an opponent for a friendly match. You can do your talking there. I enjoy the way that you ignore everyone's points, going on without a hitch rather than responding to the comments of others.

[Tom Yum]

Smash,

we know and acknowledge that the better boxer often determines the outcome in kickboxing. Thus, most kickboxers are decent boxers; Lucia Rijker is an example of a kickboxer who went on to become a successful pro-boxer; not to say that adjustments had to be made. She talks about the adjustment in some of her interviews.

I would never discount the effectiveness of western boxing. I've been beaten by them; they are hard to hit and can hit with pinpoint accuracy and power in a milisec. I have however fought a boxer with MT rules; when a boxer jabs/double jabs or jab cross, the lead leg steps out. You know how boxers catch the jab and fire back simultaneously? MT does the same thing, except its with a cut kick to the ribs or a rear round-house to the thighs. When ever you commit to a punch your legs and parts of your body are exposed to kicks; whenever you kick, parts of you are exposed to punches. Do you see what I mean? When you are in range to throw hooks/uppercuts, a distance boxer will clinch and hit from the seperation. Remember the Tyson v. Buster Mathis jr. fight in 95 or 96? The reason why Mathis lasted past the 2nd round was because he clinched Tyson when they got inside. Mathis jr. was also in terrible shape too; Tyson should have ko'd him in 30 sec. If it is easy for a flabby Mathis Jr. to clinch Tyson, let's talk about the thai clinch.

The thai clinch is hard to escape from, difficult to punch from (because you are being dragged by your neck in a cobra-like vice) and is a platform for using the elbows and knees (which are ko strikes). The thaiboxer will spin you around, not only to make you dizzy, but to prevent you from gaining balance to throw strikes while he/she will throw you into his knees from different angles. If you manage to pull your head up, to a higher level you will have to deal with elbows. In a thaiboxing match, the ref will not seperate you. Thai rules

Kicks to the legs and body are used to slow your opponent down or keep him at bay; this is just like how you go for the body in boxing. They are vulnerable to counter punching. However knees and elbows are the primary KO strikes (especially in Thailand) in the US its head punches (sometimes head kicks) because of our rules. Thaiboxers die each your from damage done from clinch knees. Boxers die too, but it is rarer.

Stances are different too; MT are upright wheras boxers are crouched. However most well-trained thaiboxers 'slide' across the floor like boxers and do not 'walk' to get their opponent. Thus eliminating the hit-step (BTW that's a really good fine point of boxing)

Before you accept a match with a thaiboxer, you should find some thaiboxers in your area who are as experinced as you are in boxing and go 3-4 rounds full contact with Thai rules. Its a whole different game. You could probably drive thru a TKD/Karate/Kung-fu guy and pick up a shake with fries at the end bc they DO NOT condition themselves for full-contact fighting. However, Thaiboxers do.

Good luck Smash and let us know if you accept the challenge. Can you tape it for us?

[terry]

Originally posted by smash
3)If you notice boxers fight in silent films era, they are straight up and hold their heads back. A kickboxer will have his chances at winning against these fighters. This style was deemed innefective and was discarded. By the time Joe Louis came along the modern boxer as we know it today came to fruition.

The most feared weapon in MT is the knee. The fighters stand more upright because they are wary of catching a knee in the face. It does happen, I've been knocked out that way off of a bob and weave.

Karate, MT, TKD- they follow what is passed down from the Master/Guru without questioning if methods actually work. Duh, I mean, the student, the paying student just swallows it all out of respect to Mr. Master!

It is obvious that you have never stepped foot in a serious MT gym, nor have you seen the way MT fighters train. They have boxing and MT coaches that are highly respected, but nobody swallows it out of respect, fool. Usually, when a guy is prepping for a fight he might work on only a few basic combinations/strategies followed with road work, bag work and 10-15 rounds hard sparring INCLUDING straight boxing.

Arriving at those combinations/strategies is something that takes experience, a knowledge of the fighter and of his/her opponent. Two of my teachers--Ganyao and Bonkerd--each have 350+ fights under their belts including 5 titles each. I don't take their word as gospel, but I do listen when they talk. Why shouldn't I? Heck, we wouldn't have five title belts sitting in our front office if they were doing something wrong.

Come one now, have the courage to put your money where your mouth is. Or are you, as I suspect, an armchair quarterback?

Terry

[darrianation]

First of all I’ll say it again I totally respect boxing. Smash, Two relatively skilled fighters in the same weight class I have a very hard time seeing western boxing winning, Not that I don’t think its not possible but its not absolute either. MT fighters Train just as hard as boxers and have a lot more weapons and lethal weapons at that. If they boxed western rules the boxer would win Hands down, but using Thai rules, I doubt it.

I think a lot of guys here have given you lots of examples why, so I am not going to add any more (round kick to boxer’s leg, round kick to boxer’s leg, round kick to boxer’s leg, round kick to boxer’s leg). Sorry.

So I hope you take the challenge and shut us all up!

[dave_UK_MT]

CAn we please draw a big thick line between MUAY THAI and KICKBOXING.

A few posts on here refer to Kick rather than Thai boxing and they're totally different things.

Smash your a wanker and know fuk all about MT, theres no spiritual namby pamby 'punching the air shit' like in other MA's.
Its no nonsense, straight to the point, brutal and it fuking hurts, much like Boxing.

Fight the MT fella and see what you think then.

[smash]

First of all, the views I present in the thread are mine and mine alone. If somebody agrees, fine, if not, even better. It should not be taken personally, Terry. It is as if it's skin off your back. I don't agree with most of the arguments for MT but I can live with that. Somebody said in the thread , to fully know the outcome is to have a showdown between boxers vs. MT fighters. Well, since you are in CA, why not descend to the boxing gyms in the Latino quarters. Show the guys there your beef, show them why MT is king, belittle them and their boxing skills, attack their machismo ( so as to assure a couple of fights). Better yet, you can go to Oscar de la Hoya's camp and make the same proposal, at least he and his entourage knows how to speak English. If still not contented, go to Mosely's camp and challenge not Mosely, but his select sparring partners. Turn on the charm, beg if you will, demand if you must! After all you are the MAN! Ask these boxers if they agree with me or not. Either way, MISTER Terry I don't give a damn!

[da_mill]

stop trolling smash, ive read this thread and not posted, but please.

You said that if people don't agree with you, that's cool. But it's obviously not if you resort to stupid comments and insults. You *think* that you know Muay Thai - people mearly were correcting you, like your comment about "scoring points".

Terry said he was sure he could match you up with someone in your class and category, eg aiming at a fair matchup. I don't think anyone on this forum - much less you, would walk up to de la hoya whilst at his gym, call him a **** and then proceed to try and fight him. now **** off.

[Tom Yum]

Smash, I don't think Terry belittled boxing at all. I think he simply suggested that in a boxing v. muay thai match, the thaiboxer would have the upperhand. Alot of thaiboxers cross train in boxing too; how many boxers cross train in thaiboxing (some; I saw a prof. fight w a Cubano who did well-he wore his MT shorts with school name in his match)

Smash it is impossible to know what tone of voice a person is using on the net. I don't think he was ragging on your boxing abilitiy; instead he suggests that you enter a match against a thaiboxer with the equivalent experience as you have in boxing. This shouldn't be blown out of proportion.

Yes, latino boxers are very serious about their training, which is why they are kings in the ring (i.e. De lahoya). Apparently you are serious about boxing too and nobody here is going to challenge that. Relax man. This isn't personal.

Take up the challenge (maybe a 5 round, 3 min exhibition match-thai rules) against a thaiboxer in your weight class/experience level. If you level the guy, tell us how you did it.

[terry]

Originally posted by smash
First of all, the views I present in the thread are mine and mine alone. If somebody agrees, fine, if not, even better. It should not be taken personally, Terry. It is as if it's skin off your back. I don't agree with most of the arguments for MT but I can live with that. Somebody said in the thread , to fully know the outcome is to have a showdown between boxers vs. MT fighters.

I don't think that most boxers and MT people are at odds. And few are so stupid as to play the other guy's game when they know what they're walking into. No, what I proposed is that you educate yourself by trying it yourself against an evenly matched opponent. Win or loose, you'll be less ignorant--and quite possibly a nicer guy--for the experience.

Well, since you are in CA, why not descend to the boxing gyms in the Latino quarters.

I'm working with Hearn's old trainer right now. Awesome dude. Oh, by the way, he respects Muay Thai. And the favorite boxer you mentioned in the other thread, Salvadore Sanchez? He used to train MT in Ajarn Chai's backyard. He's an awesome guy too. FYI -- Ajarn Chai has also been sought out by several pro boxing champs for some dirty boxing ring tricks like elbows.

Show the guys there your beef, show them why MT is king, belittle them and their boxing skills, attack their machismo ( so as to assure a couple of fights).

Sir, please don't project the chip you have on your shoulder onto other people. I've never said anything derogatory about boxing. Quite the contrary, I have a great respect for boxing and recommend training in it--especially if you're also into Muay Thai. I know I do. What I do say to you is that you shouldn't dismiss or underestimate Muay Thai.

Better yet, you can go to Oscar de la Hoya's camp and make the same proposal, at least he and his entourage knows how to speak English. If still not contented, go to Mosely's camp and challenge not Mosely, but his select sparring partners. Turn on the charm, beg if you will, demand if you must! After all you are the MAN! Ask these boxers if they agree with me or not. Either way, MISTER Terry I don't give a damn!

Hmmm...I smell a troll. How old did you say you are? Let me guess: 11? 10? Let's hope you fight better than you write.

Terry

[Great Sage]

Smash,

If you were half the warrior you claim to be, you wouldn't be backing down... Truthfully, you know NOTHING about Muay Thai to be making any assumptions. REAL opinions are based on extensive research or opinion, not shallow remarks that have no justification... Perhaps, a boxer who has defeated many Muay Thai boxers may lend credibility, but you?... You're just a whiner...