Pre-UFC: Boxing vs. Judo

[Tom Yum]

First off, I am a huge fan of boxing and cross train in it. I have reaserched an old article from BB magazines archives about a boxing vs judo match in the 50's (hope they won't mind). The match is between Milo Savage (top boxing contender) and Gene Labelle (BB judo). Here it is:

Bibliography:

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...ingvsjudo.html

Can A Professional Boxer Beat a Judo Expert?

In the August 1963 issue of Rogue magazine, a magazine of national distribution, an article appeared entitled, "The Judo Bums". The article, written by Jim Beck, added fresh fuel to one of sports enduring and smoldering controversies: whether a judoka could beat a boxer or vice versa. Although impromptu matches have been held occasionally between a boxer and a judoka, none has been held (to the author's knowledge) under specific rules and conditions or between a ranking professional boxer and a ranking judoka. Beck's article, therefore, brought to a culmination the controversy that has raged for years as to which sport is the superior form of self defense.
Beck made some of the following acerb comments on judo: "Judo . . . is a complete fraud . . . Every judo man I've ever met was a braggart and a show off . . . Any boxer can beat a judo man." Beck then described an alleged fight between himself and a judoka in which he, Beck, naturally prevails using boxing. The author met Beck. He stands approximately 6'9'' and weighs about 155 pounds. And he is no Rocky Graziano.
2nd Round: LeBell blocks a blow from Savage.

OFFERED $1,000
In concluding Beck proposed a contest between a judoka and himself ?? . . . no, but a boxer of a caliber of Gene Fullmer. His parting comments were, "Judo bums hear me one and all! It is one thing to fracture pine boards, bricks, and assorted inanimate objects (here, he's confused between the sports), but quite another to climb into a ring with a trained and less cooperative target. My money is ready ( Beck offered $1,000 to any winning judoka). Where are the takers?"
A judoka brought the article to the attention of Gene LeBell. LeBell promptly contacted Beck through Rogue magazine and offered to meet any boxer Beck selected. Gene, the 1954 and 1955 National AAU Judo Champion, was free to meet a professional boxer because of his semi-professional standing. He owns and operates his own judo school in Hollywood, California. Other judokas would lose their amateur standing if they fought a professional boxer.


1st Round: Start of fight.
CONTRACT WAS PREPARED
After much vacillating on the part of Beck a contract was prepared by the author which set forth the following specific rules: the fight is scheduled for five rounds, three minutes per round. The boxer will wear a judo-gi top (Judo robe) and a belt. He can also wear boxing trunks, boxing shoes, and to his great advantage —use unweighed speed bag gloves which completely cover his hands. He can apply any legitimate punch and hit in any circumstance. He will not be curtailed by NBA rules. Gene, the judoka, will wear his judo-gi, no shoes, and no gloves. He can apply any recognized judo or karate technique except the karate kick. A winner will be declared under the following conditions: when his opponent is disabled or is counted out for ten seconds. A referee will be the sole judge.

MILO SAVAGE
Beck selected Milo Savage, a high ranking middleweight. Savage had been fighting professionally since 1945. He had beaten such fighters as Holly Mims, Moses Ward, and Bobby Boyd. He lost two close decisions to former champion Gene Fullmer. He won his last eight fights, six by knockouts and was negotiating to meet champion Dick Tiger. Savage therefore seemed to be a true representative for boxing.
2nd Round: Savage throwing a blow.

The match was set for December 2, 1963 at the Fair Grounds in Salt Lake City, Utah, Beck's and Savage's home town. On the night of the fight, contrary to the rules agreed and set forth in the contract. Savage wore a short, tight karate-gi given to him by Beck who answered that he did not know the difference between a judo-gi and a karate-gi. Savage also wore a pair of unusual, speed bag gloves. There was a metal or plastic plate under the leather running from the knuckles to the wrist and to the tip of the thumb. His fingers were not covered. It was potentially a lethal weapon. Savage, who proved to be a great competitor, asserted that he would fight LeBell in an overcoat if necessary. But Beck and Savage's manager insisted on the gloves and the karate-gi. Gene nevertheless consented to fight him under those conditions.
A large partisan crowd was present including Salt Lake's favorite fighting brothers, Gene, Jay, and Don Fullmer.

ROUND ONE
Savage and Gene moved cautiously toward each other. During the entire fight Savage never extended his arms except to throw his fast powerful punches. He maintained perfect balance and refused to rush the judoka. Instead he moved cautiously throwing jabs with those deadly gloves. Just before the round ended, Gene managed to grab Savage's short jacket but the boxer was able to jerk away. In the engagement Gene pulled his left shoulder, an old contest injury he had reinjured a few weeks earlier.
Gene LeBell


ROUND TWO
Realizing that he could apply only a limited number of techniques because of his "bum" shoulder, LeBell's strategy was to set Savage up for a "front choke". He succeeded to flip the boxer with a "corner throw" and immediately straddled him. Savage kept punching and finally managed to put his legs into Gene's trying to break the hold. But Savage's effort was futile. LeBell would not relax. Meanwhile LeBell kept maneuvering for a better position, but the bell rang before he could end the contest. It was easily noticeable that Savage was able to elude the judoist because of his powerful strength and fighting instinct.
Clinch and LaBell giving left Thigh Sweep.


ROUND THREE
Savage threw a perfect left jab and a right-cross. The right just grazed Gene as he ducked. And both men crashed into the ropes. Gene attempted a "standing front choke" but Savage quickly attacked his opponent's body and slipped away from the grip. Gene then grabbed Savage for a "hip throw" but the boxer ceased punching and grabbed Gene's leg—thereby, preventing the judoka to move in for the throw. At that moment Savage tried a "foot sweep". It only jammed Gene's foot but the movement undoubtedly revealed that Savage must have had some judo instruction before the fight. The author also noticed that several times the boxer had attempted to ward off the judo expert with "jigoti"(judo defensive position).
3rd Round: Savage doing a Judo Foot Sweep on LeBell.


ROUND FOUR
Savage leaned against the ropes and compelled Gene to come to him. Gene moved under Savage's jabs and managed to throw Savage with a spectacular left sided "maki hard goshi". He quickly followed with a "neck choke." In a few seconds the boxer was "out cold". The choke was what Gene wanted to use. He explained that he had several opportunities to apply an arm-bar but fear that he might seriously disable Savage. He wanted to prove that judo could be effective without maiming the other party.

RIOT WAS AVERTED
Throughout the contest the partisan crowd continuously screamed mercilessly, "C'mon Milo, knock him out!" "Put the red-head away!" "Smash him !" But when Gene LeBell quickly ended the bout and effectively vanquished their idol, the crowds became violent. They threw bottles, paper cups, and other debris into the ring. Fortunately quick-thinking Jay Fullmer climbed into the ring to congratulate LeBell, thereby averting a riot.
4th Round: Clinch before throw by LeBell.

Throughout the bout Savage was not able to land a devastating blow. His most effective punches were to Gene's body but they were not crinoline.
LeBell trying to jockey behind savage towards the end of the fight.


THE FUTURE ?
What about the future, will there be more bouts ? Most likely. There will more Becks along the way who will not attempt to learn the sports or arts, but will stir controversies between them. But before they open their mouths they should take this advice. Was it Joe Louis who sagely said: "The sport of judo and boxing should never be compared because they are so different. If I were to meet a judo man and hit him first, I'll bury him. But if I don't and he grabs me, he'll bury me."
4th Round: Savage in prone position after knockout.


CONTROVERSY SETTLED ?
It is doubtful whether or not this contest will really settle the controversy between boxing and judo. There will always be those who will say "if" this or that had happened the result would have been different. But perhaps this is the way it should be between the adherents of the two great sports. What was settled on December 2, 1963 was that a ranking professional boxer lost to a ranking judoka under rules which gave each contestant the best possible advantages for the use of his techniques.

[Tom Yum]

This quote was taken from a website called "Shotokan Planet 101" and speaks earnestly about a boxing vs. karate matchup.

"....it should be pointed out that most karate players would not last ten seconds against a typical boxing enthusiast. Boxing typically has much more rigorous physical requirements and more athletic participaants."

[Tom Yum]

The following match comes from this site:
http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/boxing.html

It is San Shou vs. Boxing. Proves that American boxers can adapt and use boxing against more rounded styles, however it also shows boxings short comings against kicking/throwing.


San Shou vs. Boxing

On Saturday, December 11, 1999 Chinese San Shou champions faced boxers from the United States in 9 mixed rules matches. The rules of this event had been arranged almost a year earlier between representatives of the International Wushu Federation (IWUF) and US boxing representatives. The rules for the Chinese fighters were that they were to wear no shoes and be allowed to punch, initiate takedowns and kick above the knee. The rules for the boxers were that they were to wear their boxing shoes and allowed to punch only. Kicking and takedowns were forbidden on the US side, although there was a stipulation that at the moment a Chinese fighter initiated a takedown, the American would be allowed to counter the takedown by attempting a takedown himself. Every fight was scheduled for 5 rounds of 2 minutes each.

The venue of the fight became problematic as the fight was originally scheduled for the Las Vegas Hilton in Nevada, but the venue was switched less than 4 days before the fight to the next state over. The final venue turned out to be the Burns Arena at the Dixie Center Community College in the town of St. George, Utah. The gym was relatively small but the gym was less than half full with all of the ringside seats taken by the flag waving Chinese entourage bussed in from Las Vegas. The rest of the gym was spread with about 300 friends and relatives of the American boxers, American spectators and a small smattering of Chinese fans.

The cheering was relatively unoriginal by either side and fell clearly along nationalistic lines. The dull repetitive thud of "U.S.A....U.S.A....U.S.A." resonating through the half full hall when the Americans scored. The Chinese shouted "Jiayou! Zhongguoren, Jiayou!" and "Hao!" roughly translated as "Go Chinese! Go!" and "Good!" whenever the Chinese smacked the American fighter particularly loudly.

It was difficult to tell what the names of the fighters were as there was no program available, nor was it posted anywhere at the fight, so I am pretty much only going by what I heard the announcer say but the schedule of matches was as follows:

Junior Featherweight - 54 kg Men
Boxer from Guangdong vs. American boxer
Due to the having some directional errors traveling from Las Vegas to St. George we missed the first fight completely, but according to the results from the China Physical Education Paper (Zhongguo Tiyu Bao) the Cantonese guy won.

Featherweight - 58 kg Men
Boxer from Anhui vs. American boxer
We came in halfway into this fight, watching the last two rounds. In the fourth round, the fighter from Anhui was throwing his roundhouse kick at the American boxers head, frequently and missing more often than not. The Anhui fighter was also frequently attempting hip throws even while still 2 feet away from the boxer, which were not working partially due to the poor leverage and partially because the American boxer had adopted a strategy of stopping takedown attempts by dropping to his knees as soon as the Chinese fighter grabbed him.

By the fifth round the Chinese boxer was exhausted from his many vain efforts of lifting the American boxer off his knees and the American was punching at will. In the end the American boxer was even lifting his legs as if he was going to kick and that would still fake out the Chinese guy, even though he knew going into the fight the American could not really kick him. Only the final bell saved the Chinese guy from a knockout. The match went by decision to the American. The cheering was so loud in the gym after the first American victory, that I didn't catch the victor's name.

Junior Lightweight - 60 kg Women
Li Mingfeng vs. Kelly (?)
This fight had a little bit of history to it because the fight was originally billed as a fight between the women's Chinese National Sanshou champion Li Mingfeng and the women's American boxing champion named Mia St.John (now of PLAYBOY fame). Anyway, Mia either came late or bailed out altogether because the American camp threw in this woman named Kelly, a local boxer from Utah into the ring. Cheered on by her husband and three kids she hopped in to face Li Mingfeng. It was a sorry fight as Li was a professional athlete and Kelly may have just come from her last kid's PTA meeting.

By the end of the first round, Li had punched Kelly's nose into a bloody mess. The referee never even called a pause to stop the bleeding and Kelly's face continued to leak blood for the remainder of the fight. The entire fight was a bit ridiculous because although Li was the superior athlete, her techniques were never good enough or strong enough to bring the American down. Kelly just hung around. She didn't punch much but she didn't fall and wasn't out on her feet or anything so the Li just kept hitting her with punches, kick and the occasional takedown. Even though Li's attacks were that strong, it was still kind of depressing to watch this lady get the stuffing get kicked out of her in front of her young children. Li won by decision at the end of five rounds.

The funny thing was that after the fights between the Chinese and US fighters, Mia St. John did show up and boxed with another US woman whom she knocked out in a minute and forty seconds. Subsequently, a beat up Kelly jumped out of the stands to scream at Mia and challenge her to fight. It was weird because if Kelly fought the Li Mingfeng with half of the enthusiasm with which she charged down to challenge Mia, the fight would have been a different story.

Junior Welterweight - 62 kg Men
Geriletu, Inner Mongolia vs. Golden Johnson
This was the fight of the vicious roundhouse kick. The Mongolian boxer consistently threw low roundhouse kicks to the thighs of Johnson. These kicks were hitting so loudly, that the impact could be heard throughout the hall. In the first round, Geriletu hit Johnson with these kicks about three times which slowed Johnson down and put him on the defensive for the entire round. Evidently, the Chinese coach noted the power of this kick and in the opening minutes of the second round the Mongolian was like a Muay Thai kickboxer hammering away at the back of the American's thighs, just above the knee. The boxer took about five more shots to the leg and then fell to the ground writhing in agony, clutching his left knee. Much to the anguish of the American fans, help was not admitted into the ring until the 10-second count was completed to give the Chinese fighter a victory with a knockout. Then, Johnson's trainer (who was incredibly strong) scooped up Johnson with one hand and opened the ropes with the other to get him medical attention.

What was shameful about the fight was that while the American trainer was taking the injured fighter out, the Sanshou fighter was jumping up and down in the middle of the ring doing back flips to celebrate his victory which came the expense of someone else's injury.


Junior Middleweight - 66 kg Men
Yu Banming, Zhejiang vs. Steven Martinez
This was the same fight as previously with different faces. Evidently the Chinese thoroughly enjoyed their previous victory and maintained the course with the same tactics. This resulted in almost 10 attempts at roundhouse kicks by Yu Banming just in the opening minute of the fight. He connected just two or three times but it was enough to injure Martinez who was able to crawl back to his corner but unable to fight anymore resulting in a TKO victory for Yu Banming. Yu Banming followed Geriletu's celebrate over your wounded colleague, entertaining the Chinese crowd with jump inside kicks.

At this point the American crowd was almost ready to riot and all the officials on both sides were arguing vehemently at the judges table. Evidently, there was some agreement that the Chinese side would no longer use the roundkick'em-'til-their-knee-falls-off stratagy because the Chinese did change tactics after this fight?? (WHY? Who knows? Event was strange enough).

Middleweight - 71 kg Men
Ke Rongliang, Sichuan vs. Shane Blake
In the next fight, the Chinese switched strategy back to their original plan. Ke would keep the Blake at bay with sidekicks to the waist and high roundhouse kicks, while waiting for Blake to make a straightforward charge at which time, the Chinese fighter would grab him and throw him.

It is curious to note that the Americans who used a different coach for each fighter did not pay attention to the previous successful American boxer and hence did not employ the kneeling defense nor any of the legs raises to feign kicking. Ke had almost all of the points, being hit only by Blake's glancing blows or a lucky random punch to the head or body. Thus, Ke Rongliang won by decision at the end of five rounds.

Super Middleweight - 76 kg Men
Liu Hao, Shandong vs. David Boo
In this fight Liu used the same techniques as Ke and enjoyed the same level of success for the first three rounds. Liu would throw sidekicks and roundhouse kicks to keep Boo from closing in too fast and when Boo would come in Liu would attempt a takedown. Liu was only taking minor damage from the occasional punch to the body. It looked like another easy Chinese win.

In the fourth round however, Boo got off another lucky shot, this time connecting with Liu's head. At that moment Liu just stood there looking for all the world like a stunned sheep. Boo stared at him for about a second, probably because he was surprised at not being taken down for the umpteenth time, but quickly recovered and started a barrage of punches that were landing about 80% of the time. Liu continued to leave his hands where they were frozen after being hit the first time, neither protecting his body nor his head rather leaving both hands around the level of his neck. (The now notorious lack of heart by the government sponsored San Shou fighters. A sad state of affairs!).

It got so bad that the referee pulled them apart took Liu to a corner and ran some tests to see if he was out on his feet. The referee asked him to raise both fists over his head; Liu could only raise one. The referee then asked him to put both hands together; Liu just stood there. At that point the Chinese coach signaled that the Chinese side retired the match.

It would have been okay if the fight just ended like that but it did not. After having walked back to his corner to exit the ring, "Glass-jaw" Liu seemed to finally have regained his facilities and now was pissed off at his corner for throwing in the towel. The Chinese doctor tried to examine him and Liu pushed him away. His trainer put Liu's robe on him and Liu threw it on the floor in a huff.

On the other side, as the American fans were near pandemonium at the unexpected American victory, the winner David Boo ran up to a Chinese TV cameraman, assumed a poorly mimicked a white crane kicking posture ala "Karate Kid" and then flipped off the cameraman and the Chinese people sitting below. It was not a good evening for sportsmanship. (Classic American sportsmanship!).

Light Heavyweight - 81 kg Men
Narigeridong, Inner Mongolia vs. Reggie Ruthers
The next fight was much more cordial. And Narigeridong seemed to be the most likeable of the Chinese boxers, actually shaking hands and smiling and Ruthers before the match. Well, okay the first round did start off with two warnings to Narigeridong for hitting Ruthers in the crotch but they did seem accidental.

Narigeridong followed the same strategy as his preceding Chinese fighters and while Ruthers did get some good head shots in, Narigeridong would tap his head and nod slightly to Ruthers acknowledging a good shot, but Narigeridong never lost control of the fight, winning on a decision after five rounds.

I was pleased with this fight for two reasons. First, both fighters seemed so gentleman-like after the previous fighters' display. Second, I finally got my digital camera's burst shot to go off at the exact time Narigeridong took down Ruthers!

Cruiserweight - 85 kg Men
Li Dongmin, Shandong vs. American boxer
This was supposed to be the title fight with a big boxer from Las Vegas against Li Dongmin. The fight started with Li throwing about three kicks and two takedowns. Each attack made the American boxer and his staff more and more furious. Evidently, the American boxer had not anticipated either kicks or takedowns (the classic lack of organizational skills of those in the IWUF, getting fighters to fight without them even know what the rules are!).

So, after taking down the American, Li pushed ahead with a punch at which time the furious American kneed Li in the groin. Li went down, the referee disqualified the American, the Chinese fans went crazy over the foul, the American fans went crazy over the disqualification, and the match was over before the end of the first round.

In a way it was fitting that the last fight end with so much confusion because it more or less summarized the night. The rules were unclear and worse yet were very dangerous for the fighters. The fighters were not particularly well prepared for the match. The crowd was not educated on either who was fighting or even what the rules were.

If this match was to foster good relations between the two cultures, it was an abysmal failure. If some of these fighters had their druthers, they would have started World War 3 right then and there. The Chinese did win the evening 7 (4 decisions, 1 knock out, 1 technical knock out, 1 disqualification) to 2 (1 decision, 1 retirement), however the wins were not all that convincing as two came off of injuries and many of the others came off of multiple takedowns to which there were not many defenses for the Americans as set forth by the rules. So if this match was to prove the superiority of one sport over the other, then it failed as the models of fighting and rules proved too different.

Nonetheless, the evening was fun and educational and hopefully, the promoters on both sides will learn from this experience and try it again with rules that are the same on both sides at a venue that someone has actually heard of with high caliber fighters.

[Great Sage]

This thread is slightly related to Muay Thai vs. Boxing... Boxing, although a very sound art CANNOT withstand low kicks. Futhermore, the article "San Shou vs. Boxing" proves that a well-known boxer will avoid such fights to avoid criticism. If Lennox Lewis ever fought in a MMA tournament and lost, the blow would crush professional boxing.

Tom,
I'll be objective... If a boxer boxed and a San Shou fighter did what he does, the boxer is in trouble. Simply because the boxer does not have the repetoire. I had this discussion with a few boxer friends of mine during my days at the gym. My friends all felt that boxing was the supreme art... However, when we agreed to go head-to-head, my friends could not defend against my low kicks or takedowns. I also noticed plenty of opportunities to knee or elbow had we been fighting for real. While this incident does not prove that boxing is less effective than MMA, it DOES prove that boxing is vulnerable to low kicks, takedowns and so forth.

[Tom Yum]

I think if a boxer were to study MT and train in it, he could do well. Its just like the good old days of full contact karate in the 70's and 80's. Boxers took a look at it, learned a few kicks and went at it.

They would win by ko most of the time, because until then, karate was never a contact art. It is now of course, in styles like Shorin-ryu and Kyokushin.

[Lizard]

OK, Sanshou fighters: you can kick, punch and throw, Boxers: you can only punch. See how fair it is? A boxer is vunerable to low kicks and takedowns because they are not taught to deal with them. Perhaps we should create COMBAT BOXING where you are taught boxing techniques and defenses against the techniques of both boxing and other MAs. That could be quite an effective style.

[terry]

It would be an interesting test to take a boxer and train him for a fight using straight boxing against a Sansou fighter using Sansou rules. The mistake that it is important to avoid is to prepare for a boxing match using boxing rules. That basically amounts to bad fight prep. Know your opponent...

Anyway, using good fight prep I think it is possible to counter a Sansou guy effectively with straight boxing. What you need to do is have the boxer work against Sansou guys to do the following:

1) Read the lines
2) Counter their attacks w/ boxing basics
3) Develop two or three basic strategies for closing to boxing range and staying out of elbow, knee range (I'd have to familiarize myself with the clinch rules in Sansou but you would have to find a way to get the referee to break up the clinch--sit down perhaps?)

If you took this seriously in the fight prep stage you stand a good chance of evening out the disadvantage that comes from having a more limited tool set. This strategy would have the most chance of succeeding if the Sansou guy didn't prep well by training against a boxer. If the guy was unwise enough to train wrong then the boxer would have a very good chance of having the fight on his strengths and his opponent weaknesses rather than vice versa.

You saw a lot of fights that fit into the ill-informed fight prep 20 years ago. I have a couple of MT vs. karate matches on video that end in bad KOs for the unsuspecting, overconfident, unprepared karate guys. But it is getting harder and harder to find because the trainers and coaches are wizening up to the game.

[tyson chicken]

i would take the best boxer in the world vs the best judo guy in the world any day

[sherwinc]

Pre-UFC: Boxing vs. Judo

no doubt....... the Boxing will truely defeat Judo

Note:
how can you throw an opponent who's art is a short distance punches, take note that the elbows of the boxer are not straight......

Note:
it is really hard to throw Boxer, but it is easy to throw Karate and Tae Kwon Do cause their attacking fists are straight from shoulder to elbow to forearm up to their fists......

and one of the reasons why Karate, Tae Kwon Do cannot defeat Boxing especially KickBoxing or MuayThai

[sherwinc]

This quote was taken from a website called "Shotokan Planet 101" and speaks earnestly about a boxing vs. karate matchup.

"....it should be pointed out that most karate players would not last ten seconds against a typical boxing enthusiast. Boxing typically has much more rigorous physical requirements and more athletic participaants."

True and True, almost True......

if Boxer will defeat Karate in just 10 seconds.....

then.....

the Boxer will defeat Tae Kwon Do in just 6 seconds......

meaning.....

the MuayThai will defeat Karate and Tae Kwon Do in Just 4 seconds......
why?????
Cause the Muay Thai have an added arsenal of Kickings compare to Boxing with no Kickings.......

[Nothingness]

Sherwinc,

It is not that simple. Please take a note that most good Judoka have a strong neck. As long as the Judoka can block the blows and close the distance then the game starts to begin. If the Judoka can bring the boxer to the ground, the boxer is owned.

Of course, there is the opposite of the coin from boxer's perspective.

It goes back again to the fitness level and skills. Maybe a bit of luck, too.

Also please take not that all MA that become popular (commercialized in your terminology) will also have more practicioners. According to the discipline of statistics, it will tend to create a distribution with a longer range. However, it is also true that anyone starts learning the system will be at the lower quadrants. Hence, the distribution is skewed to the left creating a lower mean (average). Of course, there is a bigger chance for us to see lesser mortals of such discipline. That's why a lot of "Karateka" are no more than some guy in a pajama waving on thin air (a la Thai Bri). Some Karatekas are very respectable.

[sherwinc]

Sherwinc,

It is not that simple. Please take a note that most good Judoka have a strong neck. As long as the Judoka can block the blows and close the distance then the game starts to begin. If the Judoka can bring the boxer to the ground, the boxer is owned.

Of course, there is the opposite of the coin from boxer's perspective.

It goes back again to the fitness level and skills. Maybe a bit of luck, too.

youre right........

however, if i am a Boxer, i will not throw Jabs to a Judoka, instead, i will only throw him rapid combinations of Uppercut Punches and Cross Punches only..... and i will make my stance very very low so that it is heavier for him to do throw me....... and i will keep my attacking arms as close to my body as possible in order for him heavier to pull my forearm just in case........

all that i know is..... between 45% to 90% angle of elbow bent - your forearm is heavier to pull and you are also heavier to throw to the ground..... be sure that you are in a very very low stance while he starting his throw techniques.......

[Phorce]

A friend of mine trains at the local boxing gym...in it some guy came in of that karate that uses only holds/locks and disabling points..i forget the name...and says that hell take on anyone in the ring and almost paralyse them....so they get in the ring...and WACK...the boxer knocks out the karate guy so hes out cold....i can imagine the same scenario for a judo martial artists, who would rely on getting in close to throw...

and no i havent read the other posts, only the first one, just not to make anyone mad.

[bbbb]

..Tom Yum(?!), you're not such a bad guy after all!

Gene knew "...the dark side of the moon...". I read it in a magazine!!

But, what we are told at Kung Fu is : it's all about conditioning- so yeh: a good boxer will kill ya..if you are the average Joe!

"...it's worth learning.." he said. But, conditioning...well- you can alway's improve!?

[southpaw14]

not sure where this would go under but this seemed like a good enough place. I am 15 and have been doing boxing for about 9 months, I like boxing and think it is a great thing and will cont. to box for as long as possible and be one of the few great white boxers but I dont want to have a weakness for fighting i got into a little fight yesterday and the guy just starting throwing this kicks to my head one after the next. I ended up ducking and giving a hard body shot which stopped it, but at the moment i froze i never had a kick to my head in boxing before. I want my body to be the ultimate fighting machine (UFC style). What would be the best arts to cross train into?