boxing after lifting shoulders...

[jules]

how do you work this out? I don't think that i lift very hard but the days i lift shoulders it is sooooo painfull (or tireing).. any tips?

[yenhoi]

Do lots of punching, getting punched, jumping rope, and abwork.

Once you can do lots and lots of all of that, then do lots more, and add your lifting.

You could also try lowering the amount of weight your lifting, and lifting it for more sets and reps. This helps to develope endurance as opposed to raw strength, which will help with your soreness when punching.

IMO.

[NWPTrainer]

Okay...something I still have daily professional experience with. I'm an NSCA certified personal trainer in the Pacific NW.

Are you sparring or working with bags, mitts, pads, etc? Most of the power of your punch is derived from the deltoids (shoulder muscles), chest, and serratus anterior (that cool looking little ribbed looking part under your arm, but forward of the lats). Working heavy bags, pads,mitts, etc at the END of a shoulder workout is a great way to add to the intensity of the shoulder workout. Additionally, since your shoulders should already be exhaused, it will improve your stmaina in the ring. You;ll be able to throw effective punches longer.

If you are sparring, I would not lift shoulders the same workout. It's gonna wear you out enough that your fighting ability will be dramatically reduced. You'll probably catch a lot of extra punches and not deliver as many, simply because you'll be going into the ring already smoked.

RLTW

[yenhoi]

Most of the 'power' in your punches has to do with your body flying through time and space to smash into other things. Also known as footwork, body mechanics, and timing. Muscles play a huge role of course, but if punching power is what your looking for (as opposed to muscle endurance) - making your muscles stronger is only a couple pieces of a large puzzle.

[jules]

NWPTrainer,
I am talking about boxing after lifting... It includes shadowing, focus mitts and the bag... Perhaps i should just lift less weight?

[decypheredbeats]

Originally posted by jules
NWPTrainer,
I am talking about boxing after lifting... It includes shadowing, focus mitts and the bag... Perhaps i should just lift less weight?

Ridiculus
if you lift less wieght you will waste your time. For muscles to grow supercompensation needs to take place. Everytime you workout you shold be increasing your wieght, and your body adjustes to this new wieght by growing.

also a powerful punch starts in the legs, moves threw the trunks to the upper body out your arm. But when you hit the heavy back most of the impact is going on your upper body.

I currently workout at 6 am with wieghts and at 5pm I go to the boxing gym. I feel fine, most of the time.
If anything try this so you have the day to eat and allow your body to partially heal, however, I would not hit the bag directly after shoulder or anyother upper body workout, directly after a wieght training session your body is in a catabolic condition (muscle damage). Atleast if you are going to take a PWO shake with 50 grams of protien and 50 grams of carbs, preferablly from a high glycemic carb such as dextrose, this should give you a good insulin spike and jumpstart your body back into an anabolic state.

[decypheredbeats]

oh yeah I forgot to add, any sort of low impact work like speedbag or shadowboing should be fine....

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by decypheredbeats


Ridiculus
if you lift less wieght you will waste your time. For muscles to grow supercompensation needs to take place. Everytime you workout you shold be increasing your wieght, and your body adjustes to this new wieght by growing.

also a powerful punch starts in the legs, moves threw the trunks to the upper body out your arm. But when you hit the heavy back most of the impact is going on your upper body.

I currently workout at 6 am with wieghts and at 5pm I go to the boxing gym. I feel fine, most of the time.
If anything try this so you have the day to eat and allow your body to partially heal, however, I would not hit the bag directly after shoulder or anyother upper body workout, directly after a wieght training session your body is in a catabolic condition (muscle damage). Atleast if you are going to take a PWO shake with 50 grams of protien and 50 grams of carbs, preferablly from a high glycemic carb such as dextrose, this should give you a good insulin spike and jumpstart your body back into an anabolic state.

UNfortunately, this is a great example of gym science, and is not all accurate.

1.) If he drops the weight, but improves the form he is using, and slows the movement WAY down, he can do a lot of good for his strength improvement. Similarly, it is not good to increase weight EVERY workout. Everytime you get your body to a new level, you need to give it a couple of training sessions to truly adapt to that level of intensity, otherwise, you will overtrain and do more damage than good.

2.) WHile in theory, most punches SHOULD come from the legs, in reality, even the best boxers in the world, throw most of their punches from their upper body. NOBODY jabs from their feet. Even a right cross is thrown PREDOMINANTLY with the upper body musculature I described above. If you have a weak upper body, all the proper biomechanics in your punching is NOT gonna do you a lick of good. You need to have strong uper body muscles, and stamina.

3.) WHile splitting your workouts out over the day can be beneficial, it is not a necessity, if time is short. Simply by adding on a short boxing workout to the end of the strength training is not gonna hurt anything. You have about an hour to an hour and a half before catabolism sets in after you START working out. If you can get both workouts in in that time frame, you will be okay, as long as you eat as soon as possible thereafter. If you cannot get both in in that time frame, you ar lifting too long anyway.

4.) YOur body can only synthesize between 25 and 40 grams of protein at a time. Eating 50g at a go is not gonna do anything except make you defecate the excess out. You'd be better off getting a little protein in, and LOTS of carbohydrates immediately following the workout. THe glucose in the carbs will be synthesized into glycogen in the muscles. THis will increase the size and strength of the muscles.

But, hey, what do I know.......?

RLTW

[RobertG]

Originally posted by decypheredbeats


Ridiculus
if you lift less wieght you will waste your time. For muscles to grow supercompensation needs to take place. Everytime you workout you shold be increasing your wieght, and your body adjustes to this new wieght by growing.

Well that isn't quite true, now is it? There is an upper limit to strength after all. Lets just start with someone who benches 200 lbs. They increase their bench 5 lbs. a week. After a year they are benching 460 lbs. Not very likely. But let us continue the thought experiment. After a decade of lifting they'd be benching 2800 lbs. You can plug in more reasonable gains, like 1 lb. a week. It still doesn't matter. Most guys aren't going to get passed 350-400 lbs. benches ever. So its not so much a matter of increasing weight, especially since weight increases are handled by nervous system adaptation as much as they are muscles. You've got to change up routines--change is what makes muscles grow. If you make the muscles do something they aren't used to then they have to grow to compensate. The same exercise over and over causes nervous system adaptation, not necessarily muscle growth.

Of course, the other thing is that boxer's don't necessarily want to grow. That means going up weight classes. Its often better to get stronger within your weight class. And eventually you're going to plateau and reach size and strength maximums and you simply want to maintain, not get bigger (and getting stronger might entail more weight training than is necessary for boxing purposes).

[jules]

Yea man i really dont want to get that big again...

[decypheredbeats]

Originally posted by NWPTrainer

UNfortunately, this is a great example of gym science, and is not all accurate.

1.) If he drops the weight, but improves the form he is using, and slows the movement WAY down, he can do a lot of good for his strength improvement. Similarly, it is not good to increase weight EVERY workout. Everytime you get your body to a new level, you need to give it a couple of training sessions to truly adapt to that level of intensity, otherwise, you will overtrain and do more damage than good.


this I can agree with.proper form is most important of all. But since you are doing sport specific training the slow movements are BS. train slow to be slow. you need to learn how to recruit every motor unit as qucik as possible, the eccentric portion of the lift can be slow, but the concentric portion of the lift needs to be fast and controlled, to train the MU to fire off as quick as possible. This is why olympic lifts are the top excercises for any boxer....

2.) WHile in theory, most punches SHOULD come from the legs, in reality, even the best boxers in the world, throw most of their punches from their upper body. NOBODY jabs from their feet. Even a right cross is thrown PREDOMINANTLY with the upper body musculature I described above. If you have a weak upper body, all the proper biomechanics in your punching is NOT gonna do you a lick of good. You need to have strong uper body muscles, and stamina.

aright, this is my fault. I view jabs as a secondary punch, I was reffering to a knockout punch, wich comes from the trunk up. Jabs are strictly setups for a harder punch.


3.) WHile splitting your workouts out over the day can be beneficial, it is not a necessity, if time is short. Simply by adding on a short boxing workout to the end of the strength training is not gonna hurt anything. You have about an hour to an hour and a half before catabolism sets in after you START working out. If you can get both workouts in in that time frame, you will be okay, as long as you eat as soon as possible thereafter. If you cannot get both in in that time frame, you ar lifting too long anyway.


you are correct, I said this already, unless your just elaborating.
But I like to get in a couple hours a day, I just split them up.


4.) YOur body can only synthesize between 25 and 40 grams of protein at a time. Eating 50g at a go is not gonna do anything except make you defecate the excess out. You'd be better off getting a little protein in, and LOTS of carbohydrates immediately following the workout. THe glucose in the carbs will be synthesized into glycogen in the muscles. THis will increase the size and strength of the muscles.

this can be argued all day, there is no research up to date that 100% proves this as fact. but I agree at most times your body will only use 30-40 g of protien at a time, this has been said by alot of knowledgable people. however PWO your body is in a severe defeciet of nutrients and this is your window of opportunity to dump in some good nutrients to initiate recovery ASAP. Wich for an athlete that trains multiple times a day is needed

But, hey, what do I know.......?

RLTW

please, not to discredit you but I know plenty of certified personal trainers that dont know shit. There are trainers at my gym that have clients doing 25 rep ab work, lockouts on every excercise, using only machines, doing super low intensity cardio (and these clients are not beginers), doing tricep extensions and wasting their time and money. So Instead of listening to trainers I browse and read every peice of research I can find in the fields of excercise physiology, sports nutrition, and bio chem that concerns me.

[decypheredbeats]

Originally posted by RobertG


Well that isn't quite true, now is it? There is an upper limit to strength after all. Lets just start with someone who benches 200 lbs. They increase their bench 5 lbs. a week. After a year they are benching 460 lbs. Not very likely. But let us continue the thought experiment. After a decade of lifting they'd be benching 2800 lbs. You can plug in more reasonable gains, like 1 lb. a week. It still doesn't matter. Most guys aren't going to get passed 350-400 lbs. benches ever. So its not so much a matter of increasing weight, especially since weight increases are handled by nervous system adaptation as much as they are muscles. You've got to change up routines--change is what makes muscles grow. If you make the muscles do something they aren't used to then they have to grow to compensate. The same exercise over and over causes nervous system adaptation, not necessarily muscle growth.

Of course, the other thing is that boxer's don't necessarily want to grow. That means going up weight classes. Its often better to get stronger within your weight class. And eventually you're going to plateau and reach size and strength maximums and you simply want to maintain, not get bigger (and getting stronger might entail more weight training than is necessary for boxing purposes).

your misreading what im trying to say. My fault, my post was misleading. You are right though, But each work out intensity should atleast be going up.

anyways as for your last paragraph. You can still get a considerable amount of strength without mass. Ever seen some of these powerlifters who are strong yet not huge? the key to this is not to allow hypertrophy in the muscle to occur, but still allow strength to build. This can be accomplished by many ways. Most popular is dual factor hypertrophy training. This method you do a couple weeks without letting your muscles fully recover before the next workout , and on the 4 or 5 week you do a week of deloading where you decrease the wieght by 10% and decrease the excerises.

[Matt Reynolds]

First off, just wanted to thank you guys for looking into DFHT, and thank the many of you who have tried it out.

I wanted to let you all know that a CORE online magazine has published my article on Dual Factor Training and have asked it to be a continuing series. I think that the article will help clarify some things about DFHT that were maybe a little hard to understand the first time around.

CORE can be seen through bodybuilding.com on their home page here:

BB.com

Here are the direct links to the mag...

CORE Magazine

Here's a link the BB.com version of the mag...

BB.com CORE

I am really excited about the DFT series and hope to go into great detail so that everyone can understand the importance of Dual Factor Training Theory, and how they might be able to use it to meet your goals; be it hypertrophy or strength.

If you have questions about the article, I won’t have time to come back to every board and answer them. You can either email me or go to TotalElite and ask the questions there. I will be there every day, and will address many of the questions I get in future articles.

Now, let me setup the changes to this version of DFHT with what you’ve seen in the past…

Over the last couple years I have had lots of guys try out DFHT and make really good progress. However, it wasn't a perfect system (nothing ever is), and most of it's problems lied in two distinct areas:

1) There was too much daily volume.

-and-

2) It was too rigid and too complex, making it hard to follow and too easy to bastardize.

So I've done some work and come up with something very similar but what I believe to be a better version; with more options (less rigid) and manageable volume. (“Manageable” might not be the right word here as I know some of you guys go nuts with volume - but I believe this to be a more optimal volume for the average guy looking to put on quality muscle.

Now I will say that much of this updated version has roots in strength training, but I've also found that there is a real need for strength development among bodybuilders.

HOWEVER, this program is made for guys whose first goal is to put on mass and who's second goal is to get strong.

I will present another, slightly different program in the near future days for those whose primary goal is strength, with size being a secondary goal.

Hope you guys enjoy it!