J Rockwell

The post I wrote yesterday (which was erased somehow before I could send) pretty much echoed what armlok wrote...albeit more diplomatically.

Eyes, throat, groin, are all ideal targets to hit. But fine motor skills are required to hit them under pressure, and those often go right out the window when things get hairy. The story about Ted Wong using a gross motor movement (sidekick) to strike his attacker in the largest available target which presented itself is a perfect example. He had trained to do otherwise, but in the actual situation, basic tools to basic targets are what came out.

The short-armed range in which chain punches can be used doesn't lend itself to effective striking against someone who is looking to clinch. At the first sign of an attack, I am going to be covering and clinching, and looking to dominate my opponents position and balance - so that I can strike his vulnerable targets while keeping mine safe, or throw him to the ground.

I have trained in systems using chain punching, and the only time I (or anyone else I saw) was able to make it work in sparring was when that opponent was not familiar with the technique or was not ready at all. While it's true that this may exactly be the case in a "barfight" scenario - the opponent is unskilled or unready - if that's the case, wouldn't anything work? After training in both a VT/JKD type delivery system and a boxing delivery system, and I simply feel that the latter is more versitile, efficient, and effective.

"So I think one should train as seriously as one can, so that, as in this example, one doesn't just fly forward with chain punches."

I agree completely. And that training has to include sparring with progressive resistance against a non-compliant opponent, who can attack you using all the ranges. I simply don't trust myself to be able to execute "deadly" techniques that I am not able to use in sparring in an adrenaline-filled "street" situation. Because while it is true to an extent that "you fight how you train", in my experience it is even more true that you fight how you spar. That is where your true "autopilot" lies.

Best,

Jeff

Thai Bri

I always get suspicious when people outline how they "spar full contact without pads". They only come away with bumps and bruises, so they obviously can't hit very hard.

armlok

Jeff,
Save me from myself next time

"The short-armed range in which chain punches can be used doesn't lend itself to effective striking against someone who is looking to clinch."

I'd like to add the element of foraward pressure. In a FIGHT, unlike a sparring match or boxing match where one is probing and looking to find/create an opening, you have to deal with a high level of forward pressure from someone trying to take your head off. Essentially, the very common full power, body twisting, ass slinging, rear-hand roundhouse or cross. And people wonder why the clinch happens


"At the first sign of an attack, I am going to be covering and clinching, and looking to dominate my opponents position and balance - so that I can strike his vulnerable targets while keeping mine safe, or throw him to the ground."

Great minds think alike...... I also like to crash in and two-hand push to create an escape route or bounce the opponent into/off-of something. People have a lot of fun with this in class and sometimes get a little carried away so far no hospital visits on my watch.

On the topic of punching throats and gouging eyes, as I said these are viable targets, but I just don't see pak/lop sauing them grabbing/striking the throat or bong sauing into an eyejab. To me a eye jab is an opening gambit mostly and done just trying to flick the finger tips into the eyes as this seems fastest . Fun to practice with raquetball gooles, NOT! (No one will ever ask me that question in class again, BWAHAHAHAHA) Otherwise the open-hand facesmash works off your boxing structure and a finger may get an eye. MY best opportunities at a thraot shot seem to come off a crash-cover where I end up in an overwrap, I usually drive my forearm into the side of the neckand crook my hand over the neck/trap to throw knees- so iff you really want to grab a larynx I would think tis is the place... bring your hand around the front of the neck and grab. Have I done this NOOOOO, but I have gotton an overwrap and then followed up with an Osoto gake by sliding my hand/forearm around the neck to the opposite side to use my forearmblade to cut/drive at the neck/throat toward the opponent's rear-corner. So stopping and grabbing the throat seems like a viable technique. I'll ask for volunteers next time at class, hopefully it's someone with health insurance. Actually IIRC this method of throw is seen in military "Combatives" type training and manuals.

VTGreg

Say what you will. Of course we don't go in for the kill with our classmates after a strong shot, first of all because we probably wouldn't have anyone wanting to train with us, and actually because most of the guys are able to move and give something right back.

I, personally, have never had harder, more punishing training. I have trained at the Inosanto academy for a number of years, boxed for a couple and trained with Rorion Gracie. The Basement, in London, was the best training I have ever had.

frank9791

the wing chun chain punch is a good tool that has gotten a bad rap because, a. unskilled practitioners use it ineffectively, and b. critics of the technique do not understand its correct application.
I think the chain punch actually works better if you take a slight angle, 30-45 degrees, and then go thru the side the guy's face. I would absolutely not run straight thru the centerline of an NFL linebacker with the move. The move might not work in MMA too well, because classical wing chun needs to be fed energy by the opponent in order to uproot his structure. In MMA, most good guys are very careful about how they engage. On the other hand, a street fighter on a macho trip is tailor made for wing chun, because his forward pressure contributes to his destrction, sort of what Lennon called "instant karma."
hope this helps.