Liberty

Wing Chun guy (9 years) proficiently closing the gap against an agressive (freestyle)opponent:

YouTube - reto wing tsun vs full contact

Michael Wright

ha ha ha, they are both awesome!

The first vid, the last time I saw two guys fight that badly was in the Bridget Jones movie!

The second vid reminds me of the Cheung vs Boztepe fight, where two guys who have spent their lives "trapping" run at eachother and roll around on the floor like a couple of school kids. Where is the Wing Chun in this video? I'm not sure running at someone and putting them in a headlock is on the curriculum.

Keep these coming Lib, you are entertaining me.

Michael Wright

YouTube - muay thai vs wing chun

Red Rum

Have you included that clip of the wing chun 'slapper'. I can't access any of these vids, but there is one on youtube of this guy in a boxing ring up against a karate guy. The wing chun guy runs round the ring slapping this guy into submission
Pathetic
Unfortunately I still haven't seen any good wing chun vids out there but there are a couple of Alan Orr tutorial clips which are good and Wan Lam Kuen

Mike Brewer

It's strange the fellow in #31 didn't use any trapping at all to get his opponent's hands out of the way once he got the "mount."

Michael Wright

You mean this one?

YouTube - Wing tsun guy vs karate guy

Oh deary, deary me.

Liberty

Yeah, unfortunately, though I personally have nothig against the art, there does not appear to be any footage of good Wing Chun in application out there. When "proficient," it's poor at best. Then again, can't say they don't ask for it - have you seen the one of Cheung aganst a boxer. The thing is pathetic.

To set Brewer off (via a quote) "In memory of a once fluid art, crammed and distorted by the classcal mess." May Wing Chun some day find it's way back.

Red Rum

I'm pleased to say that most UK based wing chun is good and holds its own
Kamon are soon to do a Black belts page on our website, showing the numerous students who have attained black belts in other arts and yet still choose wing chun
We have boxers, kickboxers, grapplers, TKd and Judo guys of amazing quality
Kevin Chan also got his black belt in BJJ over the weekend

So Kamon must be doing something right...

http://www.kamonwingchun.co.uk/VideoLibrary.asp

Mike Brewer

Not sure I follow, Red...

Kevin Chan got his black belt in Brazilian Jiujitsu, so Kamon Wing Chun is doing somethig right?

huh?

bodhisattva

I understand what he means. He's saying these guys work in functional arts like BJJ, and they choose to do Wing Chun also. So he figures the wing chun teacher must know something of use if BJJ guys do it.

It's kind of like me seeing that you (Mike Brewer) box, but still insist the wing chun is worthwhile. I respect long term boxers with lots of skill, and respect their opinions on many subjects.

So when I hear you (Mike) support kata and wing chun style trapping drills, I can't figure it.

I'm pretty sure that's what he means.


Personally? If there were a wing chun school nearby me, and I found out a few BJJ black belts were going there to train Wing Chun - I'd probably get really, really curious and go see what the hell they are doing.

If they were doing Wing Chun trapping as I know it, I'd leave.

If they were doing some new, functional version of Wing Chun trapping (a.k.a Greco Roman) I'd stay.


And even if they were doing standard WC trapping, I'd probably stay at least long enough to befriend the BJJ guys and set up some later times to train together informally.

__________________

St. Louis MMA Training Club - MMA Boxing / Clinch / Submission Grappling / Wrestling Gym


Portland MMA Training Club: MMA Boxing / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu / Greco Roman Wrestling

bodhisattva

I don't have any problem with Wing Chun as a series of moves and fun games that look like fighting. If people like that description, and enjoy wing chun (I really do enjoy the trapping drills, but when do I have time to do them when I a) work b) train boxing c) train striking in the clinch d) train throwing in the clinch e) train control positions, striking and submitting on the ground..)

When do I have time to do wing chun, considering it doesn't work?

--

However, I do do do have a problem with people who teach Wing Chun and call it a martial art. It is not martial. It might be an "art" in the sense of "dance" but it is not a "martial" art.

I think those teachers commit fraud. I think it's a shabby thing to do.

__________________

St. Louis MMA Training Club - MMA Boxing / Clinch / Submission Grappling / Wrestling Gym


Portland MMA Training Club: MMA Boxing / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu / Greco Roman Wrestling

Liberty

"full contact" free sparring. Alexander Zhuravlev & Oleg Sultanov classes.... Lame, at first, then picks up, but...

YouTube - Wing Chun free fight (Master Donald Mak schools in Russia)

Mike Brewer

Well, had you been reading those posts, you'd have seen time and again where I said I don't train kata, and I don't find them personally useful at all but that I was debating the other side of the issue for purely academic reasons. Perhaps, with some time and dedication, your reading skills will catch up to your ability to spout venom and slander at those who don't train your way.

Likewise with the energy and trapping drills question. Work on your reading comprehension and try it again. I suggested (and still do) that "energy drills" ar nothing more than partnered drills that happen in contact range in a cyclic manner, meaning they have no distinct stopping point. Energy drills also allow students to train different techniques and options from familiar or common references, like the clinch. Pummelling to me is an energy drill, as are almost all of the positional flows you can see taught on the ground. If you read my support of energy drills to mean "Do hubud and you'll be fine" well, then...you're a little slow.

Bodhi, you throw around the term "fraud" and awful lot. You're very quick to label each and every martial arts instructor who does anything remotely traditional as a fraud. Do you really believe all these instructors are criminals that are just out there fleecing the public? I swear, for all your talk, you seem like you're only interested in pounding the Straight Blast Gym drum and screaming "We Own The Truth! Come See US!" When you say things like "I do do do have a problem with people who teach Wing Chun and call it a martial art," you're really insinuating that no wing chun guy out there has any idea what fighting is, and that you are just far smarter and better equipped than all of them. Please tell me you're playing a little bit of a role here, and that you aren't really as closed-minded and prejudiced as you come off.

If not, I think you may be committing fraud in the same shabby sense. You're talking out your ass and making mass generalizations about tons of other arts and teachers - many of whom you've never even met or seen. You're telling people that those folks are getting it all wrong, and you're calling them crooks. And in my case, you're misrepresenting the things they say and do in order to cast them in a bad light without any regard for the truth or context of what's actually been said. So while you're up there passing judgement on every other instructor under the sun, do some self-examination, would you? The "I'm the true owner of combative knowledge, and all others are frauds" routine is tired.

DickHardman

why do guys like this try to make it seem as if they are all about wing chun, and then try to use bjj when it actually gets down to it?

Liberty

I don't know; it depends on what you mean by "amazing quality. Far too many clips of Wing Chun on youtube by every "master" and or student at every level purport thier having been blown away by the video they post. One watches these clip only to discover once more it's poster meant something along the lines of, "Wow, look at "how fast/skillfull/dealy/etc.," is against a cooperative lackey/wooden dummy or what have you..."

In other words, the clips poster is impressed by demos having nothing to do with actual fighting skill. So, "amazing skill" is vague - amazing in what sense?

Again if your "Kamon must be doing something right..." means that they are attempting to evolve their Wing Chun into an actual fighting art (many BJJ moves/holds/submissions would not qualify as they are easily escaped via a nice juicy bite/eye-gouge/groin crush, etc), then okay. The jury, however, is still out.

I say all this respectfully. I have to believe that given Yip Man's, Hawkins Cheung's, Wong Sheung Leung's and Bruce Lee's own streetfighting legacy - especially Lee's, given the eye witness testimony of people of high integrity (the late James Lee, Taky Kimura, Dan Inosanto, Hawkins himself, et al) who were blown away by his Wing Chun, that the art, in the right hands is an awesome one. And Lee supposedly knew just a third of the art!

So, it's on you, the Wing Chun individual, as much as it is on the art's continued evolvement, and that, along the lines of what it's many practitioners claim - street fight science, not sport.