jubaji

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DickHardman

what are you talking about? i saw that fight, and it was one of the best displays of martial arts application ive ever seen. seeing that video made me a true believe in wing chun anti grappling methods as well, as the need for vigorous training in grappling had become completely nulified by slaps, finger jabs, testicle grabs, and the furious wing chun chain punching that emin used to incapacitate cheung after he successfully took him down.

im still waiting to get my tickets to the emin boztep 2008 royal carribean wing chun cruise were we will get to train with emin during the day, and then have dinner and play craps with him at night, while beautiful women serve us champaign and mr arieson is stuck at home being tricked into making diet menus for matt blake who is really just jubaji.

Mike Brewer

I think it's the same as it's always been. If a person feels a need to limit himself to one set way of doing things, he'd better be one of the best in the world at doing it. If he's not, he'll always be at a disadvantage when faced with someone who feels no need to limit what he does. He'll always be more predictable, easier to prepare for, and ultimately, weaker in terms of overall game.

DickHardman

look at the legendary footage yourselves. in all honesty, there are 11 year old kids at the place i train at who are whitebelts in bjj that could more than likely hold their own against either of these wing chun masters, and there are a few students in the childrens program in the 8-13 year old range that would outright decimate both of these guys.

YouTube - Fight, Wing Chun Masters! (Emin Boztepe Vs Wiiliam Cheung)

bodhisattva

Don't even question it, Jub. It's the old "I'll just BITE YOU if you wrestle me."

People don't realize how stupid it is to bite a man when he can already outwrestle you. He wrestles Liberty down, he gets on top of Liberty, Liberty bites him - and now he's really really pissed.

Good thinking, Liberty. Just bite him, or grab his balls. It's S U U R E to work.

-Dwayne

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Tom Yum

Eye gouges, bites, groin crushes all have there place. Best time to use one? Whenever you want - but keep in mind you may have to justify it.

Would a groin crush help you escape from a guillotine? It might, but if groin crush is your only answer for an escape because you don't have a fundamental base of grappling, you might find yourself getting dropped on your face or strangled to death if the groin crush merely pisses the other guy off.

Check out Vunak's RAT and Kino Mutai. Good stuff!

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jubaji

LOL!!!!!

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bodhisattva

Totally agree, Tom. If a guy has a solid wrestling structure, biting and gouging can be quite helpful to get a little movement in a tight hold...

But, still yet, biting is kind of a nasty choice in this day and age of blood diseases.. Hepatitis, Aids, and others... Yuck.

and eye gouging is going to sit kind of roughly with the jury. I mean, if some guy has killed your child and raped your wife and you come home and fight him and gouge his eye out - no problem...probably.

But if it's some ego battle at the local pub - things are going to get litigious I believe..

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Liberty

I must be living in another reality. Such strikes/techniques have worked for/against me, when there was no other alternative for myself or the other guy in physical street encounters. Something about attempting to tap out BJJ style in a street encounter that just doesn't quite translate. Yep, must be I lack a fundamental base of grappling - so that's why UFC World Champs lose inspite of their years in the ring (or octagon) as world class fighters. LOL!

Well, at least Chunners will escape any further "abuse" (call to reality) for now.

Tom Yum

Nothing was mentioned about tapping out during a street encounter, liberty.

I think biting, gouging, crush moves are good to have (see my mention of the RAT and Kino Mutai systems) but having a fundamental base of grappling is going to be more helpful when dealing with skilled grapplers otherwise they will control you most of the time.

I can see how an eye gouge could definitely turn the tables against someone who has the mount on you, skilled or not - if you take out their eyes, that's enough pain and distraction to bridge them off; and if you get caught in their guard, the groin could be exposed to a crush. Simple examples of how you could use these moves in the grappling range when the action stalls.

These moves could work as a pre-emptive attack against a grappler before the fighters collide or during a stand-up exchange, if you can land them. BJ Pen landed an accidental eye strike against Matt Huges and it definitely took him out for a while; Mike Tyson bit Holyfields ear and it took the fight out of Holyfield. Groin attacks? Keith Hackney punched Joe Son in the balls about 5 times during the early UFC's when he had a side mount and a not so secure head lock. Son released the head lock and got him into a guard, I believe. These examples took place during a stand up exchange or on the ground without action.

Could these moves work against a skilled grappler who shoots in full speed or already has you in a submission hold? Unlikely. Skilled grapplers can take a man down in the blink of an eye, check out any clip of a good judo or wrestling tournament. They don't come in half-assed, telegraphing their arms outward, waiting to be punched/kicked.....

The side choke (or arm-triangle) would make an eye gouge or groin crush escape impossible because the grappler has a good defensive position - the defender's closest arm and neck are tightly pinned against the attackers arm and if done on the ground, his legs are in a particularly stable position. There are other moves take advantage of positions where the defender cannot easily reach the attacker.

Variations of the rear-naked choke seize the defenders closest arm, rendering it useless for groin crushes or eye gouges. Biting may not be an option, given that the choke is tight and restricts movement of the defenders neck/chin.

I have no idea what level of grappler or fighter you are liberty? I don't presume anything about your grappling skills - you could be a world class fighter?

In my humble opinion, MMA style fighting is great for head to head style fighting against one opponent without weapons.

I don't know if you've been on the forum for a while, but I'm not one of the guys that says wing chun sucks because its not used in the ring, although I think Orr has demonstrated some good wingchun skills integrated into an MMA style.

If wing chun is never tested in live training environments (or dynamic fighting) its less likely to work when you need it to.

That's my call to reality.

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Liberty

Tom, allow me to quote myself from post # 45 above - "Again if your "Kamon must be doing something right..." means that they are attempting to evolve their Wing Chun into an actual fighting art (many BJJ moves/holds/submissions would not qualify as they are easily escaped via a nice juicy bite/eye-gouge/groin crush, etc), then okay. The jury, however, is still out."

My BJJ remarks, including the one about tapping out (my last post) had to do with it'sapplication in the street, where it's vital to remain on one's feet. To those in Wing Chun who would attempt to improve Wing Chun by adding BJJ to it when their claim is that Wing Chun is not a sport (which it is not).

I personally do not agree with mixing sport grappling with street self defence training. I personally train for each separately and vastly differently. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this or not. It's what I feel I have to train in. Enjoyed your last post.

Red Rum

Sorry for the late reply.
Yeah, Bod had it spot on.
My point was that a lot of people are saying that wing chun is so poor that no-one of talent would do it
My point was that people like Kevin Chan who now holds a black belt in BJJ still considers wing chun to be his most useful art. So wing chun must have something going for it
Kamon is still creating its 'black belts' page, where we will be displaying guys who train with us who hold black belts in other arts

It doesn't mean that wing chun is the best system out there, only that it must be an okay art if these kind of guys are choosing to do it

As I said before, Bruce Lee evolved into what he became because he started with a good platform (wing chun) and then evolved it so that it would work in the Western world

A lot of schools are still so traditional in wing chun that it does not survive in the West against giant pub fighters, brawlers etc

If you look at some of the rooftop fights of the 50s and compare it to Cage Rage or UFC etc, there are marked dfifferences

Every culture fights differently. And that is exactly what Bruce found when he went to America. So many wing chun schools have to adapt (whilst keeping traditional moves) the style

Part of that is just changing drills slightly. The other part is involving other arts to fill the gaps that wing chun miss (groundwork, long range fighting etc)

DickHardman

"it doesnt matter, ill probably get hit by a car anyway......"

Tom Yum

Which moves?

The guillotine might be one of them I can think of off hand, but I'd like to see your list. Maybe a lapel choke?



Jiu-jitsu itself is not a sport, remember? Brazillian jiu-jitsu can be used in empty handed situations. Just like Boxing can. Both have sport sides to them; both can be used to some degree in self-defense.

Remember when Tyson got jumped a few years ago by 2 guys? Tyson took them both out without any problems without taking the fight to the ground. In another press-release, one of the attackers is reported to have pulled out a metal bar to try and stop Tyson after clearly pissing him off.

http://www.rediff.com/sports/2003/oct/01tyson.htm

Thanks, Liberty. I enjoy discussing the topic as well and respect your position on staying with your chosen art.

If you change the mindset of training and tweek a few things, I think you can turn a sport art into a combat one - why? Most sport arts were derived from killing-maiming arts. take Tae Kwon Do for instance. The USMC has documented the effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do when used by South Korean Mercenaries during Vietnam - according to reports from the USMC.

http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2005/05durand.html

"In establishing the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), Gen James L. Jones frequently recounted his observations of Korean Marines during the Vietnam War. The fact that Republic of Korea (ROK) servicemen were skilled in the Korean martial art tae kwon do was widely known, evoking respect among allies and instilling fear in the enemy. The former Commandant recalled that his own Marines envied this skill, believing the Korean Marines were the most feared adversary on the battlefield and that North Vietnamese soldiers and Viet Cong irregulars would bypass Korean units whenever possible.

Despite a long and rich martial arts history, the Korean martial arts program was in its relative infancy at the time of the Vietnam War; tae kwon do had yet to achieve its current status as a national pastime or an international sport. Nonetheless, tae kwon do was a martial art in the truest sense of the word, developed by a soldier to enhance the fighting abilities of his soldiers. By the time the first servicemen deployed to Vietnam, all branches of the Korean military had implemented martial arts training programs. Moreover, it was in Vietnam that the value of martial arts training in combat operations was conclusively demonstrated. Accordingly, the history of tae kwon do in the Korean Armed Forces provides valuable insight to American Marines as the MCMAP enters its fifth year."

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DickHardman

in my studies of the vietnam war, i also read about how south korean troops were the most feared of all. they were tough, skilled, and showed no mercy to the enemy. they would have no problem wiping out entire hamlets to avenge the loss of a single south korean to a vc sniper.

the tkd they used was most likely nothing like the tkd we see today though right? it was probobly utilized a decent amount of hand strikes like knife hands and hammer fists and things like that which are great for self defense.