npk9

Ahh but you touched on another point that will just make matters worst (Zirk). What was the founders intention in creating the art? We now live in time where these arts are obsolete in modern combat. Granted the tools are somewhat the same. Punch is a punch and always will be.

In CMA every substyle markets itself as a "combative style" or has a "combative makeup" w/alittle bit being cultured, disciplined or whatever positive attribute that they're trying to sell - these "positives" of training are only a by product of the whole system - that system being evolved around combat. Even the internal arts (Tai Chi, Chi Kung) states that "at a certain level you would be able to defend yourself". Discipline, fitness, improved mental focus and compacity will increase by default (from one's baseline) with training because the system demands a certain level of those proficiencies. No other sport or training that doesn't have a combative element demands so much from the body and mind.

I doubt that the founders of the those CMA at that time were thinking - well let me put this together so we can be more cultured people, or more fit or more intelligent. I think that if someone even back in that day wanted to achieve those things - they would have done so in other means and more direct means none the less.

But let's take a different look at it. Say that a founder did want to increase all those attributes through CMA and if the practioners wanted to go more heavily into combat they could but it wasn't the founders primary goal of combat. Unfortunately, no one will ever know. The people who carry on the lineage today are 10 generations or more from the founder. What do they know of the founders intention. Heck - play whisper down the lane and state a simple sentence and 10 people later you know its not the same sentence. It'll only get worst with people's interpretations as well as society mores and values. I don't know how it was back in those days but I know that in todays market.

Hypothetical situation: If I were to continue tradition from what my "Grandfather" put together back in his day via 1940's. His studied all these arts from Asia and designed his own system and passed it on with my father (who opened up a school) and passed it down to me (to keep the school going) and I was carrying the lineage. I would by default have to modify the system. I need new students to join in order to keep the school going and the revenue coming. How should I market the system? Health improvement (like Yoga, Taichi?) or more like (Cardio Kickboxing)? Should this be more MMA oriented for those who want to just duke it out? Or should market it as system with great roots from various arts combined into one and it will improve your childs overall health and you'll see your childs behavior and grades improve?

This situation again is only from today's pressures. I can only imagine what had happened in the past few decades and before.

Zirk - I agree that forms are definitely a text book of theories and applications but again - and a practioner should choose which of these fits best. Unfortunately, these are outdated techniques and applications because they deal with people that have fought a certain way in a certain period of time. Western boxers back in the 1920's don't box the way they do now. Hell even Muay Thai has evolved since its inception.

There's nothing wrong if people just want to do forms for the sake of forms. That's why they have wu shu and godforbid XMA (I hate them). I think people who promote and follow TMA's are similair to religous zealots (harsh i know) but they don't stop to critically think about the system as a whole. Maybe few will question a certain technique or even a form but there is stigmatism that questioning your master or sifu is a no no. That is very un Buddhist like - especially for CMA that have such religious roots.

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zirk

Hello again. I must admit, I fail to see where (I) make matters worse. Unless ofcourse you are under the assumption than I consider CMA to be the ultimate death-fighting-ravage system on earth, witch I do not I cannot answer for other people, so what I state are my opinions alone.

The forms, aside from being a curium of moves is also there to train the whole body to move, and ‘follow the general guidelines’ for the system. They are also a way to strech and strengthen a body, and I can clearly see it has it use in mass training. I understand your point of ‘watering down the lineage’, but you are forgetting one aspect of it: good practicioners understand the system ! Let me take an example. A friend of mine is third degree black belt in a fairly modern version of Kun Tao (Shantung province kung fu brought to Indonesia). By attending a Long Fist seminar and watching a few movies, he can fight ‘long fist style’ as well as people practicing it for years, as he understand how the power is generated, and how that specific system delivers strikes/kicks. He can correct students of other arts in their forms, simply because he understands the very basic behind combat.

I use him as an example, because his level of skill is far ahead of mine. And if you watch him destroy (almost literally) 3 boxers on the street, you cannot deny his fighting abilities (well, he destroyed one of them, and it kind of stopped the fight there, and continued in court) I have talked a lot with him, and he denies my claims that it because he is a natural better fighter than many others, and he would say something like ‘when I was in Japan last year, I fought someone who trained ‘something’, who was about 30 times better than me, but I won because of my system’. Ok, statements like that should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you witness him in action there is no doubt he knows what he is doing, and thus (for me) makes his statement pretty credible.

But you do not go that far without questioning. I have myself ‘wasted’ a couple of years on various CMA training gyms, with ‘masters’ not able to explain even the simplest of things regarding moves, always talking about the great Chi that will tear down your enemies with a lightning bolt. And funnily enough, never entered any form of competion or engaged in fights with other people at their ‘level’. The worst I ever heard was a Sifu who made huge claims to be master ninjutsu, master ‘old style san-shou’, master ‘red dragon fly by fu’ and whatnot, but he could not compete in my country as he was ‘used to a much harder ring fight’.

He could not give me a demonstration kick on me, as it would ‘break my arm, he was trained to do that since age of 4’. So instead he gave a few kicks in the air and making some bruce-lee expression with his face.

Now, that is bogus. And from the sound of it, what you have witnessed is a lot of bogus as well. And that, in my opinion, is the real problem:

A lot of bogus! And I have a personal opinion of it as well: Walk into a Thai or boxing gym, and you see a lot of fighters. Walk into a CMA gym and you see a lot of geeks (pardon my expression). The meaning of ‘kung fu’ is ‘hard work’, and that is what a lot of CMA are not prepared for. They don’t want to train hard and fight hard, but they want to be ‘master martial artist’, and happily jumps on the wagon to take the short route. I was once told to ‘not stand against ( I don’t know the English term.. to be more cooperative’) on a hopeless student trying to perform some newly learned ‘chi na’ (locks). They simply did not work as intended/instructed, even if all I was doing was grabbing his hand and holding it still. I was told I could get serious injury if I did not follow the move, and I said I would probably go down when the technique was performed correctly, so I would take my chances. Then I started just slipping my hand out of his grip, so he could not perform it at all, to witch the instructor said ‘well, he let go, so there should be no further need to continue the move’. So the whole point with a rather complicated lock was for me to let go of his hand. Yeah right. One more place I did not want to train.

And I can count numerous times in ‘pre designed drills’, where my partner (who have done this routine for years) starts doing the blocks long before I have made my punch. Or if I have deliberately been to slow to perform my block, his punch would miss by a mile. Now, where is the training in that ? (I have been to quite some gyms, due to moving around)

So to sum up my views, after all this rather rambling nonsense, and quite getting off topic:
- Forms are ok to do, but you must combine it with actually performing the moves on an unwilling partner
- If you just want to fight, CMA is probably not for you, as there are better alternatives
- There are great CMA fighters, who are dedicated and train hard
- You need to stay away from bogus instructors.
- Most MMA/Thai/Boxers are better fighters than most TMA. Probalbly are most hockey/football players better fighters too.
- Keep it real. Most people will never be very good CMA fighters.

So I support your claims that gyms doing mostly forms are not very effective for fighting, I disagree that it is impossible to find the ‘real’ MA within the techniques performed in a form, and I do agree (sadly) that there is far too much nonsense in the world.

As previously stated, I find it the most fun doing CMA, and I acknowledge I would probably be better at fighting doing MMA or other combat sport. In the end, the most brutal mofo wins on the street anyway, who have no regard for neither his or your safety and well-being.

Ps: I really don’t like modern wu-shu.