martialartspeon

Has anyone here who has trained in Kung Fu with lots of forms work as well as MMA find it a good use of time for the martial aspects of fighting?

__________________
martial art schools and information
FREE listing for the first 50 martial arts schools

KungfuJeremy

I've found form work for me has worked quite well for fighting aspects, but it all depends on the practitioner. Im slightly experienced in mma but i'd be lying if i said i was equally trained in both mma and kungfu. Ive trained with a few of my buddies who are in mma and ive done quite well against them. I use everything i learn, with forms, i train my muscles to do a movement. If you practice something over and over again you develop muscle memory and it becomes a reflex. I think mma will train you to fight more effective at a quicker pace, but form work can be productive and work just as well, but it will most likely take longer.
The plus side in my opinion is forms are a good way to workout and express yourself, that will help develop muscle memory, speed, and timing. While some negative aspects is that your hitting thin air, you have to use imagination to put an opponent in front of you, and it takes time to learn and master.
While in mma you constantly have something to hit, whether it be pads or a sparring partner. Your forced to fight in mma.
I hope that kind of answers your question.

Mike Brewer

Forms may not be a waste of time, depending on your goals. However, if your goals are MMA fighting ability, scrap the forms and pay attention to MMA. It is its own sport with its own rules, and there's a reason the things that work in the ring are not trained using forms. You're better served by hundreds of other training methods, at least with straight, simple fighting or MMA ring ability as your focus.

Hot_Wings

I just started Toas Nabard Kung Fu (Just had my second class today) and we do forms, but we also hit the bags and spar as well.

As it says in the book “The Making of a Butterfly” on page 49, “The striking post was one of Chen’s favorite training devices.” (makiwara) “You can practice techniques all day long but you will never know if your sword (weapons, hands, ect) is really strong or sharp until you hit something. You will not know if you are making mistakes, either. This post will whisper the truth in your ears.”

As well, he goes on to state: “You must practice this (hitting the bag) every day. Winter, summer, rain, snow…every day. In two years you will have very strong weapons.”

I have heard on this forum a lot of stories from people who say that all they do are forms all day long. How long have they been training? Two weeks? Six months? I don’t know, but the Kung Fu place that I go too starts you on bags and sparing pretty quickly. In fact, Master Soffakhu has even developed his own specialized training equipment for hiting and kicking things.

Obviously you have to learn the basics first though I guess. I mean if you don’t even know how to punch correctly should your sifu let you spar? Won’t you only screw up your training by learning bad habits through sparing before you know what you’re supposed to be doing? As well, if you don’t know the defensives moves right then letting you spar too quickly could just get you needlessly hurt perhaps? I don’t know, but I would imagine that these are valid concerns.

I think that you should talk to your sifu about your concerns and find out what he or she says about sparing and things like the Makiwara and punching bags. As well, just know that other places, like the Toas Nabard Kung Fu that I am now taking start you off on weapons and things like Iron Body training right from the get go. So, please don’t think that all Kung Fu places only do forms for 5 years and never any actual contact with anything.

Have a good one.

martialartspeon

Forms and muscle memory I do notice that in myself. So I guess you are right it is helpful. It is still hard for me too see how practical it is for true street fight training. I'm thinking something like Krav Maga or Systema might be worth checking out for me.

__________________
martial art schools and information
FREE listing for the first 50 martial arts schools

Mike Brewer

The fact is, forms can offer some benefit. However, technology has outpaced traditions. There are far more efficient, far more effective ways of preparing for a real world event. When you think about it, many forms were concocted during the early 20th century B.C. That means technology and training methods have had roughly four thousand years to evolve and improve.

Sport science, competition, and even warfare have added to our understanding of training for combat in that timeframe, and considerable evolution has occurred. More simply put, you're better off paying attention to modern, contemporary, scientific methods if fighting in modern contemporary situations is your aim.

Forms have their place in practice and the preservation of "art," but as far as learning to fight goes, you're better off focusing on fighting. Tradition can easily get in the way if you mistake it for science. Better to rely on the discoveries and innovations of modern times than the traditions and even the values of the old days.

SmallThought

As has been stated previously, forms help perfect technique and develop specific muscle groups useful to your particular art. However, when talking about there usefulness for developing FIGHT skills, to me the biggest lesson form learn is developing a sense of perserverance when all you really want to do is pack up, go home and have a nice cold beer... Perserverance is crucial to fighting, but if you just really want to learn to fight, then fight a lot; get beaten, develope a bad attitude and some dirty tricks; become insanely agressive and fight some more.

May i just say that this is not an approach that i advocate, but it really will teach you how to fight like nothing else will... I hope you don't go down that road and persist with training perserverance and avoidance; just make sure you add some pepper into your training and turn up the gas a little from time to time to make sure you get those techniques really sizzling.

Have fun.

zirk

In my humble opinion, the forms themselves are not ment to be muscle memory or anything.

The forms themselves can have various functions:

-Pure exercise to stenghten and strech.
-Somwhat 'hidden' formulas for the system
-Mixed in 'philosphy' for the spesific art
-General movement of the style (using whole body)

The actual techniques often looks nothing like how they are played in a form. What you must do is understand what the movements are, and train, train,train how to execute a few of the chosen techniques.

Ie, what might look like a bogus long arm movement might in reality be a short block and jab, resembling a western boxers style.

So why not just train the applications modarn way, and skip the entire form ? Beats me. Each and everyones taste. I am a 'kung fu' dude myself, but I have no problems seing that someone just spending all training sessions doing a few selected applications and conditioning would be a better fighter than me. I want my selected applications to work, but I have no need or deisre to be a killing machine.

When I learn a new form I 'refuse' to go ahead before I understand the application usage and mechanics behind the move. If it fits me, I train that usage, if it doesnt, I just accept it as a useless (for me) move in a form I learn.

Oraenor

forms let you try new stuff in training and in reverse you get to develop that form better

__________________
America's solution to birth control- "Lets start a war!"

Red Rum

The way I like to think about it is that training on your own can be boring and sometimes even detrimental to certain techniques

I know that people favour wooden dummy etc but wooden dummy can make you too rigid as you are playing against a man made of wood!!

Training forms help the 'flow' of movements that you do in your particular martial art, and teach you not to do long, time wasting movements
They are not techniques you will necessarily perform in the street but uses the same 'energy and flow' in a street fight

npk9

.......

The only thing forms help in reference to life outside of forms (be it MMA, San Da, Muay Thai, or any contact sport) is that you develop body awareness through forms. It doens't help with technique in the ring (thats what shadow boxing is all about). Grabbing is next to impossible in MMA - and even more remote in other sports when it comes to boxing gloves. As Mike stated earlier - today's technology allows us to bypass forms as a training tool. Forms are fun to do as much as drawing. Drawing isn't going to make you an awesome painter - it'll help alittle bit but what you're doing are 2 very distinct things that as a whole put under one catagory.

Look at it this way. If today's soldiers had to do use "traditional" methods. They would start doing finger forms - then they would work there way up to weapons forms (but these weapons would be) mock m16 or m4 or whatever they use these days. No bullets in them just an empty shell and made out of alloy or spring steel (if it were wushu - LOL). Then they would be tested for qualification after several years of training - then if they were successful we can be confident that they would win battles for us.

That is how the "traditional" method prepares one for combat in the ring.

__________________
I like to full-contact fight - do you?? If want a challenge - PM - we'll set something up! Seriously

Mike Brewer

npk9,

While I agree, I feel I'd be remiss not to point out that the military actually uses a number of "forms" to train soldiers. During basic bayonet training, soldiers line up and execute techniques by the numbers in cadence on nothing but air. During rifle marksmanship, soldiers are expected to go through excessive by-the-numbers dry firing prior to sending their first real round downrange. Many soldiers, depending on their era, can recite the steps for clearing a malfunction (S.P.O.R.T.S.) or the steps in making a clean shot (B.R.A.S.S.) based precisely on the fact that they had to do it in step-by-step "kata" format first. They are coached on everything from how to load and unload the weapon all the way up throug happroaching thefiring line and even getting into position to shoot by - you guessed it - forms. The same is true for virtually everything that could be considered dangerous. Grenade training starts with an inert grenade and a one-two-three-four by the numbers movement sequence that could easily qualify as a form. Those who've been through it probably still remember the sequence "Proper grip, thumb the clip, twist/pull pin!" all too well. The same is true of marching, weapon handling, and even weapons inspection. Want proof? Walk up to anyone who served prior to Vietnam and say in a loud, drill sergeant-like tone "Inspection....ARMS!" You'll see a "kata" on how to perform a basic inspection in ranks for an M-1 or M-14 rifle. After Vietnam soldiers will show you how to do it on an M-16. Both, I think we can agree, are doing forms.

It pains me to say it, because I really do believe that forms are a far less effective, lifeless, stagnant training method for the most part. However, an honest man has to admit that they have their place, especially in some areas where immediate contact drills might be overly dangerous and partnered drills are either non-feasible or ill advised. People can disagree, and that's fine. I think everyone here recognizes that the value that forms have is extraordinarily limited. I think we can mostly agree that for all practical self-defense based purposes, there are better ways to get where we need to be. But to say that forms have no practical place in any fighting method is, well, mildly retarded.

npk9

Let me be more specific and less ranting from my last post.

I do believe forms have there place in combat as well, but it should only be the beginning, an introduction of the technique that can be utilized for one to memorize - I just think that the vast majority of kung fu practitioners have too much faith in forms and that these forms are simply outdated. On top of that, they believe that any other training is secondary. Its good that Mike brought up forms in contextual setting with the military. This leads me to 2 very important points - which if I could address it to all the "Masters" and "Sifus" out there.

Let me identify what I considers forms: traditional forms, shadow boxing, and set of movements that have a predetermined order of concepts, or simply doing stuff in the air by yourself.

Point 1: Forms have there place in combat. When shit hits the fan - you instinctively go back to you feel comfortable with. How many times have you gone over your favorite move in your head and do it in the air? Running through different scenarios in your head before drilling them with a partner to see if it can "theoratically" work.

Point 2: Content of forms have to be on target with your goals. Doing "traditional" forms in a time that no longer uses swords and spears is slightly rediculous - especially if your goal is for self defense or sports combat. As Mike has mentioned with the military - they go through "forms" that are very job specific. Again - I believe that traditional forms HAD a place in combat training - they simply do not today.

Again - its great the Mike took my military paragraph and expanded upon it with more specific forms - something that I knew that they did but obviously not having the knowledge of it. Let me be critical of the last post as well as mine. I was specific in the use of firing. What Mike has stated is spot that soldiers prepare via dry fire. Just like how most CTMA do as well on there own with forms. The big distinction after that is soldiers have adequate training drills and actually do fire into a range and measure there accuracy. CTMA as a whole grossly lacks an adequate "after form" training to prepare a practioner who is interested in combat sports or self defense and adequate feedback on performance.

My questions to the Masters is this: Why haven't we updated our forms to conform with todays needs and society. The military has. Self defense has evolved as well as combat sports. Why keep something the same when it is no longer usefull - on top of that why praise those systems as if they were the answer to todays needs.

As I semi-seriously joke with my other friends who practice martial arts. Why isn't there a Chinese rifle form or a pistol form? Why shouldn't there be one? With today's technology you don't need to have a live rifle or pistol to see if someone has hit something on target when go through a form?

Sorry for the ranting.

__________________
I like to full-contact fight - do you?? If want a challenge - PM - we'll set something up! Seriously

Mike Brewer

Now THAT'S a bad ass post, brother. You've asked some incredibly good and very relevant questions. I agree with where you're coming from, and I am solidly behind your line of questioning. Trouble is, as I've stated before, I'm neither a "master" (of anything) nor expert enough in traditional arts of any kind to offer educated opinions on why they do or don't do things.

Still, I think you've crafted one of the best discussion starters I've read in a good while, so I'm going to drop to one knee and BEG the forum members who do have expertise in this arena to start taking an active role in this discussion. It could really be educational.

zirk

Npk9: I think that is the very fundamental difference by modern and traditional arts. The TMA strive not for the ‘ultimate’ training methods, or for dominance in the ring.

It is the same with people doing 1818 military drills with single load muskets, they do not do it to excel on a modern Warfield, but a combination of fun, interest and exercise.

I Totally agree, that forms practice is NOT the best way to train for martial artists. What forms do is help you train movement of the entire body, strengthen your body and also list various techniques used. If all you want is to beat people up, then practice krav maga, SECA system or something else, perhaps some middle way with Kun Tao.

If you walk into a club and some sifu/master/senior student starts rambling about ‘studies show that students doing form only win over students doing only sparring, so we practice form only’, I say: get the hell out of there. It is utter rubbish..

If your instructor even hints you will be a good fighter by only doing forms, get out of there. You want to be a kung fu fighter ? Fight ! there is no other way around it. It so happens that forms are a part of CMA, with the moves hidden and concealed within a little dance. Asians have much more sense of the estetic, you don’t find many English people spending 2 hours boiling a cup of tea and serving it.

That said. Most CMA with ‘real’ roots is indeed battle tested and have fully functional moves. Much have been lost with the culture revolution, and much have been watered down, so it is ‘buyer beware’. Any CMA studio claiming forms practice is the main goal should be avoided.

You train the form as part of preserving the lineage, and if you are not comfortable with that, train something else that is not TMA. For each and every move in a form, you should be shown how to apply this move. Then you select a few of those moves that fits your way of fighting, and you start practicing them. Again and again. First against willing partner, then with more resistance, then in free sparring, then you find someone else not in your club and try perform your moves on them.

The forms are not the fighting, but it is the traditional way of teaching CMA on the road to the fighting. Without it, it would not be CMA. But without any fighting, you don’t have CMA either, just powerless forms.

I’m not saying it is the best way to learn how to fight, but it is ‘a’ way. And it so happens to be the way I enjoy training. Where I train we have around 3 hour sessions, and you can chose to follow ‘belt grading’ witch is mostly forms (empty hand and weapons), special interest witch is a chosen style (mostly singular techniques, drills, application and 2 people practice on eachother), free sparring or san-shou (well, to be honest, the san-shou instructor is a thai boxer who mixes in some MMA shoots/defence, but who cares  ).

Most students do a little of everything, so we are not masters in praying mantis nor san-shou, but it is a fun way to train, you get a little full contact, a litte kung fu sparring and learn a few tricks on the way. Some are just learning to fight and go san-shou only, others are only interested in forms and do mostly tai-chi.