Red Rum

Excellent point. There is always that argument that if a solar flare hits America, their weapons arsenal is useless

Or if a soldier is stranded somewhere then a lot of his gear may not work etc. Reliance on superior weapons is risky

But it brings me backto the point of starting off with the basics and then evolving to the modern

ie a soldier learning how to use a flint rifle but once he has mastered its use, move on to the next or learning how to improve the flintlock rifle

This is exactly what many good generals have done in modern warfare. They have to adapt to their enemy, rather than insist that the traditional way is best

Liberty

In fairness, Mike, I'll quote part of a line from the firts clip - I know, I know, there I go quoting out of context - LOL!

Quote: "Master James Lee was very disturbed..." End Quote

Liberty

Just curious, would you say that about Judo and Western Boxing, which have not changed much in the last 30-40 years or so and are yet extremely effective as is. Just something to talk about regarding these two (not make their case as the same for other arts that do need way much more catching up with the times).

Tom Yum

Judoka and boxers spend most of their training time working against spontaneous, resisting opponents at a good intensity level. If you can throw/sweep/takedown a guy, even one stronger or larger than yourself who knows what he's doing and follow him down into a finishing hold, that's pure combat effectiveness. If you can put a guy down onto his knees or knock him down (or out) with strikes, same thing.

Not saying gong fu guys can't do both (because I know they can), but alot of what we see as gong fun training does not deal directly with combat and while some gong fu fighters are very effective and fierce, many are worse off combat-wise than judoka/boxers who've studied under much less time.

I've seen folks in some traditional arts (not necessarily gong-fu) get promoted to black belt level after years of studying, but not have the skill, attributes or instincts to handle a boxer/grappler whose been training and sparring for 10 months...

Judo dojo and boxing gyms by their nature attract one kind of student: one that wants to throw or knockout their opponent. Whreas gongfu guans attract alot of different kinds of students - some want physical fitness, some want culture, some want discipline, some want deceptive fighting methods.

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Mike Brewer

Tom's post answers part of this, but while the tools of boxing and Judo haven't changed a great deal, the training methods really have. Compare the way Marvin Hagler trained 30 years ago with the way someone like, say Evander Holyfield trained just 10 years ago. Sport science has added a lot ot modern training methods, and they change pretty rapidly. Even the equipment has evolved.

I also think that Tom is right to say that one other difference is that boxing and judo are competitive arts that put one person against another who wants to win. There's not the same degree of cooperation in boxing or judo as there is in a typical kung fu class (from what I've seen), and so boxers and judo players are in fact getting a much clearer and realistic understanding of conflict (as opposed to cooperation). I think that's where their legitimacy comes from. They work, and they work for real on a regular basis. There's almost zero speculation. At any given gym, if you ask "Who's the best fighter in here?" Everybody can tell you. Ask the same thing in a kwoon, and everybody usually points to the instructor out of loyalty.

Liberty

While I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Tom (and you, Brewer) with respect to he Judo and Boxing, my questions had to do with ..." I guess I can see and appreciate where you're coming from, but it still leaves me with the base question of why some folks believe that one art, unchanged from its original founding state, can be the answer to evolving and changing combat" as that statement would apply to these two great arts. Which, by the way, you have hereinabove answered, Mike.

I'd have to say that given an art to study - and here's one for you to start a good, seperate thread with, Wright, I mean that - where the only two experience based arts were Judo or Boxing ad the rest were all traditional punching power as determined by the snapping sound of one's gi, me, I'd go for the Judo, as countering a boxer is covered in Judo, while countering a Judo man is not covered in Boxing, plus, nothing like a great Judo slam to put out a boxer.

Michael Wright

Lib countering a Judo man is covered in Boxing, its the same as countering a Kung Fu man, a Karate man, a JKD man, a Postman, a Milkman, or Batman.

You knock him out.

Liberty

I don't know, I mean, overall, and with exceptions here and there(due to the bottomline - greater skill, etc), Boxing's close cousin, Kickboxing has not faired well against, Judo's cuz, grappling. I'd agree with you on the Kung Fu, JKD (way too many in "JKD" train dead drills only).

I mean, would a Mayweather, for example, come out on top against a Sean Shirk (using only his awesome judo skills)?

Michael Wright

No that isn't my point, I wasn't taking a stance of Boxing being superior to any of the arts I mentioned, or any art. What you need to understand is that I don't look at anything through the eyes of art vs art.

My point is this. Martial artists spend so much of their time and training pre-occupied with "what the other guy will do". Boxers just spend all of their time and training being fully occupied with what they do, and making sure they are damn good at it. Who is stood in front of them is irrelevant, their goal doesn't change.

What happens after that is all down to who is better at their art, not if their art is better.

Michael Wright

and by the way, my points above aren't about Judo vs Boxing, I don't include Judo in my view of martial arts because..
a) As any Judoka will tell you, its a sport, not a martial art and
b) All the Judo players I know train with the same mentality as a boxer, they just get on the mat and do it.

Liberty

Nice counter! That's what I love about the few reality based arts out there, though - what you have just described - again, nice counter!

By the way, the following link on Jigoro Kano, is areally great read on Judo's founder. On a side note, as much as I think of Bruce Lee, I was personally offended that he supposedly chose to have this great man's portrait placed in a scene from "Fist of Fury," supposedly as an insult. It's amazing how I always manage to bring up Lee in my various posts _ LOL!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kano_Jigoro

Tom Yum

Liberty, check the archives.

Many many moons ago, I did a write-up of "Judo" Gene LaBelle vs top ranked middleweight boxer, Milo Savage. The fight took place in the 50's and ended in 5 rounds? Savage put up a great fight, largely due to his own fighter instincts than boxing attributes alone, but eventually got wore-down and submitted.

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Liberty

Yay, I was right! LOL!

Kephri Ra

Yes, of course you should always try to improve and develop if you can, particularly if the situation in which you should use something is changing. MMA is a good example - if kung fu fighters wanted to do well in mma competitions they would have to learn how to adapt their martial art to the rules and other peculiarities (like the cage) of MMA, as well as well as adapting their training to focus only on what is relevant. But there is also a danger in thinking that everything can always be improved for ever. Martial arts is about physical movement, which is very different from the example of technology which you use. Technology will always move on, whereas the capabilities of the human body have remained pretty much the same since we climbed down from the trees. The myth of eternal progress often leads people into change for the sake of change and the presumption that all change must be for the better. You mention starting from the basics and then moving to the modern, but just because something is old does not mean it is basic, and just because something is modern does not automatically mean that it must be more advanced.

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Ghost

I like watching stuff like this on youtube, provides some quick entertainment.
I think there is a market for this in the world for some reason. No doubt all the people that train in this really believe in it. Its funny but sad that so many people fall for it.
I expect its the same people that check their starsigns every day and dont step on the cracks in pavements and take halloween seriously.

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