Grixti

Hi there,
I am a student at Kamon in London and have been doing Wing Chun for nearly half a year. The main strikes i have been learning in class are low kicks, knees, elbows, chops, palm strikes and... the chain punch. I know i am only at a very low level in wing chun (i passed my yellow two around 3 months ago, for those of you who also train at Kamon) but it seems that the main form of attack in the style is the chain punch.

Now, im slightly doubtful in the effectiveness of this punch but I think this is largely based on my own incapability of performing the attack effectively. I have improved my chain punching significantly since i started Kamon and do feel that it is a more powerful attack than it looks. It provides the speed to attack multiple times in a row and seems street effective because it can effectively counter the type of wild swings i see in nearly all street fights due to its direct line of attack.

So my question: how effective is this type of attack? Has anyone used this in a real street fight to great effect?

I know Wing Chun has a great reputation for street effectiveness so i am just after some evidence. If Sifu Kevin Chan got in a street fight, would he chain punch the hell out of his attacker?

Any thoughts on chain punching would be great... enlighten me!

Michael Wright

I have no beef with Wing Chun, I studied it for a few years and I have been trapping and chain punching for over a decade as part of my Jun Fan. I would just start though by challenging your assumption that Wing Chun “has a great reputation for street effectiveness”. I haven’t witnessed anything in my experience that supports this theory, so I’d just be careful about the basis of your belief system, before we start discussing specific techniques. At the risk of being a bore, a chain punch in itself is the same as any other technique from any martial art, it depends on the person throwing it. But, lets take that as a given, and I’ll share my views and experiences.

As a very small part of an attacking strategy, the chain punch can be useful. Only though, in my experience, as a short, violent burst to apply pressure on your opponent to briefly gain the upper hand. The scenes on DVDs and Videos where you see people being straight blasted across a room with 20 or 30 punches, and the bad guy falls down, is not reality in my experience. Typically, around 5 punches thrown hard and fast on the bridge of the nose causes enough pain, pressure and distraction for you to move to better tools (plumm, head, knee, elbow). People who have tried to endlessly chain punch their opponent to death often end up breaking their hands on the top, side and back of the head when the opponent turns away, or they can hit elbows and forearms when the opponent covers up.

The chain punch is not, in my experience, a knock out technique – the hand tools of Boxing are king in this arena. It is not a fight ender, and it is also not a fight starter. If you try to wade in with the chain punch as your opening gambit, it is flawed. If it is to be utilised, then make sure you use pain and distraction as your entry, apply a short burst to gain the upper hand, then proceed to your finishing techniques. Of course, life is never that simple, and sometimes a chain punch can be a good “oh shit” technique when things aren’t going well. If your'e going under and all else fails, charge down the guy’s centreline with your chain punch, then get out of there.

I do think it has merits when used correctly in the right context, I do also think however that this technique has perhaps enjoyed a little too much exposure and kudos. It used to be very much a major part of my arsenal, where as now the tools of Boxing would always be my first choice in hand range. That said, the chain punch remains firmly in my back pocket.

Hope this has been useful for you.

Red Rum

Bleurgh. That was me being ill!
I teach at Kamon. Who is your instructor? I can say 100% that a chain punch is not your main form of attack. I have barely used them in streetfights.

The main purpose of doing chain punches in class is to train hand speed, lines of punch and to move with your opponent

As with every technique you learn, there will be a time when you may find a chain punch useful. But these are rare. Have you not done feeding techniques in class yet?

I would say that someone like Kevin Chan can pull off chain punches effectively (every on of his punches feels like a car has hit you), but he would discourage relying on this technique, unless you get an opportunity in the street.

Look at the youtube video (type in 'Kevin Chan streetfighting'). You will see what I'm talking about. I think the only time he does chain punching is when someone goes to the floor and I think he only did this as a demo. In reality he would have just snapped the guys arm

Michael Wright

Hmmm. In my experience, the arm snap very much falls into the category of “movie techniques”.

I hear it bounded around a lot: snap the arm, wrench the arm, break the arm. I think its one of those techniques that martial artists like to talk about, because it sounds brutal and effective, but in reality it is incredibly difficult to do.

The design and structure of the arm, especially anyone who is in any kind of shape, is extremely strong. This is compounded by the fact that in a real encounter, adrenal surge will enhance the dynamic tension of the muscles and tendons that are designed to support and protect the joints. Look at the incredible amount of pressure grapplers place on the arm when trying to gain submission by arm bar – entire lower body strength pushing against the joint and upper body strength pulling against the joint. Breaks in this arena do happen, but are rare in the overall context, and typically the effect is one of mild hyper-extension.

However in the world of “street” martial arts, and I will stick my neck out here and say especially JKD and Kali, arm wrenches and breaks are bounded about as if its as easy as harsh language. To trap, secure and manipulate the arm of a resisting, aggressive opponent, then apply the necessary force to snap the arm, is an incredibly difficult thing to do. This is not the mention the fantasy techniques I see all the time where A throw a punch and B breaks the arm in mid air. Its nonsense. It also takes an incredible amount of emotional will and mental strength to snap the limb of another human being, and in my experience most of the guys who talk about it would never have it in them to do it.

Liberty

Chain punch junior, or, um, son of chain punch, or, oh well, a street version of it, sort of...

YouTube Video

Mike Brewer

Agreed. A quick wrench of the arm can work to get it out of your way for a second, but you're going to play hell trying to jack that elbow the wrong way.

Chain punching has not been a "knockout tool" for me either. I've used it, but I think even 5 punches is optimistic. If I'm charging forward like that, I generally only get about two before I'm clinching. And if I'm not charging ahead, I'm getting countered by hooks and footwork because I'm mis-using the tool.

I grew up under Paul Vunak, so the "straight blast" (chain punching as described in the Vunakular of the day) is an entry tool for me. It is not an opening attack, and it's not a finisher. It's how you get to the neck and keep the guy off balance on your way there. That said, I've found more success with boxing tools in recent years than I used to with the straight blast. Honestly, as much as I know it hurts video sales, you'd likely do just as well to stick out your arms and charge. The punches have the one advantage of being quick. You can get fists on target with repetitive shots in a short time, and that can make people react. Against seasoned, tough guys, it's not as effective. People that can think and move under pain and pressure will generally either counter-punch until one of you comes out on top, or they'll shoot. In other words, chain punching - like any other tool - is a good option if it's used correctly, in the right place at the right time on the right person for the right purpose.

It's not magical, it's not mythical, and it's not "the answer." It's one answer to a very specific question. Trying to apply it to the wrong question is like doing jumping spinning kicks on an icy hill. It's just a bad idea.

bodhisattva

The only time I tend to use it is if my opponent has been knocked over his heels, or he sways back a whole lot when I punch at him.

Then I run up into his face with chain punches to bowl him over his heels.

__________________

St. Louis MMA Training Club - MMA Boxing / Clinch / Submission Grappling / Wrestling Gym


Portland MMA Training Club: MMA Boxing / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu / Greco Roman Wrestling

cam

---""As a very small part of an attacking strategy, the chain punch can be useful. Only though, in my experience, as a short, violent burst to apply pressure on your opponent to briefly gain the upper hand.""---

I think the opening that would enable a "short violent burst" would be the opening that could also allow you the chance to put in a good solid punch.
I'm not talking about loading, But exploding one punch with sufficiant follow through with good mechanics, be it a wc punch(not a chain), boxing, or whatever. The chain doesn't allow for power because you end up cutting off the sequence of body mechanics to maximize punching effectivness.

Try sparring with a fully resisting opp. who is skillfull and see if you can land more than 2 chain punches in a row..... It's not easy. and you may find that trying to rush a burst of punches in was a waste.

When you get a chance opening from a bridged position, Make it count.
The effect from that will give you the upper hand not a chain.

I try to look at chain punching as an Idea. While your first attempt to punch is being foiled, proceed with the next and control the line.

Chain punching from long range(charging in) may work as a distraction against some people (make them cover up), but against someone good who is well versed in counter punching, it would be a bad idea. Why not just stretch both arms straight out in front of you and say,"hit me".

Red Rum

Do you truly think a BJJ black belt will not be able to break a guys arm? Kevin Chan has done techniques with me where I could not escape in any way due to his positioning and then followed through with an arm bar (with his knee on my chest) and almost took my arm out completely and he was going light.

Michael Wright - Without doubt arm breaks work. I understand what you are saying about movie techniques and there are certainly a lot of styles that employ 'fantasy' moves (ie one punch knockouts etc)

Yet if you honestly think that arm breaks do not happen, you should perhaps do some more research. I know of numerous people who have incurred broken limbs....

Mike Brewer

Cam, you're absolutely right.

The best MMA example of this is obviously Vitor Belfort vs Vanderlei. In boxing, the best example of it is the opening or shot right before a knockout. Those are the same types of openings (albeit in different ranges), and there are other tools that work every bit as well or better. In that respect, your statement is 100% true and valid, and no one should tell you otherwise.

The straight blast (chain punching) for me has always been a tool used best when there's more than one (or the potential for more than one) bad guy. It's useful precisely because it doesn't knock the guy out. It hurts, but generally lets him keep his feet until I get ahold of his neck. If I can do that, he's my human shield, and I can keep thumbing his eyes and popping him with elbows while I use him as such.

In my own experience, if I really take a good opening and stick a power punch in it, guys tend to fall down. I'm a large mammal at 6'4" and around 260 lbs, and I've always had pretty heavy hands. That being the case, there are times it's best for me not to hit the gas too hard. That's where the straight blast comes in.

Michael Wright

I didn't say arm breaks don't happen, the point I made is that they are exceptionally hard to achieve in a violent encounter, and I don't buy the casual notion where people say "he'd just snap his arm". In my experience, it is an exceptional technique performed under exceptional circumstances. That was my point.

And Red Rum, you just have a default response to anyone who challenges your assumptions which is "I know people who have used it in a fight, I've used it in a fight, I've seen it in a fight". That line starts to wear a bit thin after a while.

Red Rum

If you knew me, knew who I know and train under kevin Chan you wouldn't doubt that statement.

The forum does not permit you to list names and/or it is usually rude to do so without their say so

If you PM me I will supply details of names, details etc

Failing that, if you doubt arm breaks happen, come down to Master Chans or any BJJ class and tell them that arm breaks are hard to pull off.

Michael Wright

...and what is he going to do, break my arm to prove the point?

No I don't know you, but I have to be honest reading your posts I'm rather intruiged. Just have a look at some of your quotes:

“It works for me in street confrontations and many others I know who train in kamon”
“Ive seen wing chun used in aggressive fights and wing chun destroyed the aggressors”
“For the record, I also used to fight bare knuckle several years ago”
“I myself do low level tournaments and primarily use my wing chun to devastating effect”
“If you find anyone willing to get into a no holds barred fight with me, I would be glad to video it and show wing chun vs a resisting opponent”
“I work for the police in Britain”

So. You are a streetfighting, bare knuckle, devastating Wing Chun competitor, who challenges people to no holds barred fights, and also works for the Police? That’s a pretty interesting CV friend.

I live in London too, and have been involved in the UK martial arts community for over 16 years. I have to be honest, I must have completely missed the legend of this Wing Chun fighting machine. You’ll have to excuse me if I am a little cynical.

And why does it always have to be so mysterious with you guys, secret stories of streetfights and guys whose names you can't mention.

I use my real name on here, and you are welcome to check out my background and credentials at my website www.adaptivemartialconcepts.co.uk You can also watch me train, teach, and demo my martial arts and boxing on You Tube, just search under miguljkd.

So, thats who I am and what I do, its there for anyone to see. How about you?

Mike Brewer

I'm personally more than a little skeptical when I hear people talk about "devastating" or "destroying" other people. Maybe it's just the way some folks talk, but it has a decidedly theatrical ring to it that seems to displace any truth a statement might have. In my own limited experience, I find that anyone willing to talk that way about themselves generally has ego issues, and you can't trust their impressions anyway.

Much like the old, "Walk into my school and throw down a gaulntlet!" statement. Seriously? Is that how Kamon works? The school and its instructors are so tightly wound, they'd drop what they were doing and dogpile a guy if he came in and annouced (this is a theatrical image, too), "Arm breaks are hard to do in a real fight!"

Personally, I don't want to learn my self defense from people with that short a fuze or that little common sense.

Come down to my school. What a load.

And um, the forum has no problem with you telling anyone who you train with. The real question is, why does it matter? I know who I trained with, and I also know there were tons of people at every one of those places that were better than me. I can also tell you there some that couldn't fight at all. But we all trained under the same people, didn't we? Asking someone to judge you based on who your instructor is or what color your belt is ranks among the dumbest statements on Earth. The only thing anyone can judge you on is you. It's telling to me that you'd rather they didn't. Every time one of these questions comes up, Red Rum, you seem to throw out Kamon and Kevin Chan's name to validate what you're saying. What's wrong with Red Rum's name? Is your opinion less valid than Kevin Chan's?

Red Rum

Let's put it this way. Kevin Chan could own me in a second. He is a better martial artist than any I've known and his wing chun is second to none
he is a master of BJJ. A master of wing chun. An extremely proficient boxer and kickboxer. So yeah, I use his name to give extra emphasis to the doubters. because if I said that wing chun works, people don't believe me. But if a black belt BJJ says it, people tend to take note.

I use Kamon's name so that people know what I am talking about. I train in five different martial arts and if I said that 'I' did this or 'I' did that, people wouldn't know if I ws referring to kickboxing, BJJ, Kamon etc

And no, the offer was not a throw down. The guy was doubting that an arm break would ever be possible in a fight. As he did not take my word for it, the only other way is in person

For the record, I do not challenge people on websites. I will always offer clarity to people who have a different view. It is very dangerous to dismiss the breaking of limbs because you have never seen it. In BJJ classes, people get broken limbs just from doing light training sometimes!

What is wrong with the words 'devastate' or 'destroy'
If I beat a guy in a fight, it might be on a technicality or on a lucky knockout, so that dosn't really describe the fight. When I say that wing chun destroyed an opponent, I literally mean that the techniques overwhelmed, overpowered and tore the guy opponent. It is no biggy

And by the way, the tournaments I mentioned previously were 'low level' and by this I mean it is not exactly UFC standard. There are far better guys out there who have trained longer or who just train harder


Michael Wright -
“For the record, I also used to fight bare knuckle several years ago”
Hence the phrase several years ago
I work for the police now and most of my fights are legal

“If you find anyone willing to get into a no holds barred fight with me, I would be glad to video it and show wing chun vs a resisting opponent”
This was an answer to those idiots who claim that wing chun doesnt work against a resisting opponent

“Ive seen wing chun used in aggressive fights and wing chun destroyed the aggressors”
This isn't exactly a big statement. And if you are saying that it doesn't work, please feel free to pop along to any Kamon class and watch the instructor give a demo

Nothing is mystical or secret. I can't go round posting details of fights or names on a public forum, partly because it is bad ettiquette to list people without their permission and secondly because I can't be bothered to quote them everytime I post.
If you want my name, PM me and I will give details