Tom Yum

I've seen traditional martial artists hold their own against decent kickboxers up close and personal (but not yet against decent grapplers) so I don't need convincing and how often is an avid practitioner of any martial art likely to square off against a Cung Le or Frank Shamrock - add to it the fact that alot of military combatives maneuvers used seem to come from traditional arts, gong fu included - but for the sake of our audience, why should someone choose to study TCMA versus MMA?

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

jubaji

The point about slow vs fast forms in taijiquan aside, this analogy doesn't really apply. Babies don't start out walking slowly and carefully; as soon as they can stand they tear off as fast as they are able and they fall down all the time. You could say that the falling down teaches them about standing and walking, but that probably doesn't work either because it has to do with the development of the brain and coordination with the fast growing body and all kinds of stuff.

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

TTEscrima

You'll never hear anyone from this camp say you should train anything and exclude the other. You need skills in all the ranges and you need to add in weapons and multiple opponents. Clearly wrestling isn't the best place to learn striking and MT isn't the best place to learn to wrestle. It's about adding tools, ranges and knowledge to your skill set instead of believing you get everything you need from one style. Every style brings different angles and concepts to the table, Frank Shamrock had trouble with unfamiliar kicks proving that what the other guy knows and does matters. When you're discussing the Martial arts and SD what you don't know/understand can get you killed.

TTEscrima

Ain't that the truth, it's been fun watching your youngest learn to walk, he flies around now eh? Not so in the beginning, he needed a hand hold and each step was nearly a disaster, speed wasn't even an option unless you count crashing to the floor. Now he can make it to the other end of the house in the time it took him to go 3 feet.

ttruscott

Pssst,

ummm, that's what weapons and a sneak attack are for...


T

Why you should talk to a lawyer before talking to the police... A review of the effects of high stress due to violence (called either critical incident stress, CIS or Sympathetic Nervous System Stress, SNS) and how stress impacts on witness statements to police.

__________________
"Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

Mike Brewer

At risk of starting World War III, we've all heard at least one member of that camp talk about how irresponsible and dangerous it is to allow anyone to think MMA has any benefit at all for self-defense. We've even seen said member call some of us opportunistic snake oil salesmen and con men for teaching such things as boxing and MMA - even if it was just a supplemental piece of a much larger training method.

So no offense meant to you or KOTF, but at least one person in that camp not only says "you should train anything and exclude the other," but has questioned the honor and character of those who disagree.

kingoftheforest

I think he may have spoken those words in the context of training military and not as just an all around blanket statement about MMA in general. If I am not mistaken that was the area I saw those things being posted.

But I'm not trying to participate in WWIII

Just that we have trained in Judo, jujutsu's, kung-fu, silat, and just about anything else I can think of short of certain types of wrestling that are solely ring arts at this point. So I can't really see other than taken out of a different context, why someone who trains all these things would say that something is completely worthless all together.

__________________
These opinions and views described above may not be the opinion of forum moderators or owners. These are owned only by this forum member protected by his 1st amendment rights. You do not have to agree with these views.

This punch is heavier than life.
Treat other people as you would like to be treated

[

Tom Yum

Good stuff, TTE. Thanks.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

Mike Brewer

I think I'll let it die after this, but those statements were in reference to the mistaken notion that I owned an MMA gym and was preaching the value of MMA to cash in and make a buck. I was told that I wasn't an instructor worth respecting and that I was a pussy and an idiot because I was teaching and preaching "dangerous and irresponsible training methods" by saying that there was value in MMA training methods and techniques (as I've said many times before and since, incidentally), and it clearly didn't matter that I was advocating it as one piece of a much larger overall picture. He was wrong on all counts, of course - I didn't own a gym and I didn't teach MMA either - but that didn't seem to matter. Now, I realize he was going off on a very emotionally driven tangent, and had it not been such a hot issue for him, there might not have been any conflict at all. I mean, you guys have echoed my sentiments time and again, so he obviously doesn't have any problem with the idea - just me personally. Since you, or at least TTE, do the very exact same thing I was talking about way back then - ie training in a realistic, street-oriented manner while practicing other methods as partial supplements to the overall picture - it's clear that he's either changed his mind or that the problem was never one of ideas but of personalities. But that's not really the point.

My point wasn't that statements were made, just that there's no real need to say "No one from this camp" when talking about one's own - very valid - opinions. It sometimes results in words being put into other people's mouths, or at the very least comes across as disingenuous when paired up with conflicting statements from the past. TTescrima seems to know his shit. Saying "I'd never recommend" is more than enough, and I just meant that there's no need to try and endorse or sell the rest of his peers and instructors with blanket statements that may not be (or at least haven't historically been) true.

And for the record, I posted the smile before my response because I really have no desire to revisit what an ass Boar was about the whole thing.

Tom Yum

The point I was getting at is that most folks are less likely to have a fight off a Frank Shamrock for self-defense purposes and won't have to train at that level.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

TTEscrima

Ah, Boar. Boar and his family are now 4 generations deep in SF/Spec ops they've been operators and trainers longer than the majority of the people on this board have been alive. Boar HATES MMA with reason, he's seen mission failures and deaths that resulted from people without proper H2h training who tried to fall back on MMA concepts.

Boar boxes and wrestles and loves the sports but he hates the mentality of superiority that came about in the early 90's. The common man has been led to believe that SF operators use/rely on MMA and that is a lie, however since the POI's of SFQC and JFK are classified people have tried to give the impression that MMA is involved when in fact every top unit has specifically requested either Line or the Navy's CMA program as a REPLACEMENT for MMA due to it's failure on missions.

Much BS is slung how the MMA program allows 100% resistance, thats BS of the highest degree, the Marines report complained that with any resistance rate above 20% that injuries were too high, the Combatives programs are also taught at 20% resistance for the same reason. When those factors were taken into account the drive to replace MMA in spec ops began in earnest. MMA did NOT prepare soldiers for war better than any other sport has been the overall opinion.

All the combatives programs allow the fighter to remain upright and mobile so his gear didn't hinder him on the ground and most importantly combatives give the soldier the ability to finish the fight himself without waiting on backup. The very real possibility of war with Iran has the SME community clamoring for a change in the training, IRAN is known for human wave attacks and wrestling, this spells disaster for troops counting on friends arriving first and MMA tactics to complete their missions.

MMA people exclude all other arts as inferior because of what happened in ring under a certain rule set. That rule set and the techniques used in the ring are a piss poor match up for the battlefield and it's costing us missions and lives, that pisses Boar and anyone with any common sense off, thus anyone promoting things that weaken the troops ability to complete missions or survive are either uniformed or have an agenda in his opinion, I tend to agree. MSGT Larsen even admitted to having an agenda for bringing MMA to the Army and he's admitted it wasn't a success, if the man responsible for the introduction can admit it was a mistake it shouldn't be so hard for those riding his coat tails to man up and admit it as well.

Somalia was a disaster for the MMA in the military program, so much so they tried to cover it up. They continue teaching everyone in the Army the basic program rather than stopping and admitting it was a mistake but combatives training is back at top priority for H2h for the operators.

MMA is fun, that made it any easy sell to the troops because they didn't mind the training and more people were able to participate, but training to survive on the battlefield isn't about making friends and having fun it's about killing people before they kill you something MMA doesn't prepare them for.

MMA was also nearly free and that made it popular with commands on tight training budgets however mission failures aren't free or fun. There is a reason that MSGT Matt Larsen posts at E Budo and not Socnet, its because Socnet is full of operators who have been there done that and seen MMA training causing mission failures and worse. So you see Boar isn't the one excluding other arts for the love of one, it was those who fell in love with MMA and chose to exclude the other training needed to build soldiers, that ain't ever been Boar but I have read it here and you're damn skippy he called people on it.

Sure there are special situations where arresting or detaining someone you need alive and in one piece is valuable for a soldier but those are the exceptions not the rule, so specialized training for those situations makes sense, teching the entire military this instead of how to kill does not.

Is MMA entertaining? Hell yeah and sure soldiers watch it and discuss it, they also watch and discuss pro wrestling, bull riding, football and Nascar, but that doesn't validate their usefulness, just their entertainment level.

The biggest argument for MMA was the contact and resistance however both can be found in other training programs with the same 20% limitation. This excerpt from Street Reality VS. "Other" Realities covers the operant conditioning issue rather well.

"You fight the way you train, if you train to fight, or compete with a certain set of rules ingrained in your mindset, you are going to revert back to that under stress. This is why focus mitts, heavy bags and man dummies are so important to training because you cannot safely hit a training partner in the eyes or throat, yet, you have to be prepared and it has to be pre-programmed in your head that you must do just that. Why? Because they are effective, they are martial, that's why.

This is another thing that comes into play with some Martial arts, which have been turned into sports or ways of self-improvement. Competitions, well, you won't have many competitions if people start having their eyeballs busted with finger-jabs and you won't have too many competitions if people start receiving crushed tracheas from throat strikes. Yet...when you decide to compete, you are agreeing to certain things and you are limiting yourself to those techniques that are legal within the confines of the competition, right?

Worst of all, you are programming yourself to NOT hit vitals. And that carries with it the possibility that you will not hit a vital on the street (you fight the way you train) when you have to, in order to survive. Muscle memory, programmed response, penalties that are sanctioned against you if you violate the rules come under the psychological aspects of training for combat, penalizing or punishing for violating a rule in class or competition that will save you on the street, and rewarding behavior that might get you killed on the street, like kicking high and telegraphing your movements, turns the martial art into a sport that is not suitable for street or battlefield combat.

You do not have to believe me; I have scientific proof of this. The Proof is called, "operant conditioning." The Marine Corps used operant conditioning in the L.I.N.E. Combatives System [1] and I imagine that all sound and effective military training uses it to one degree or another. The military uses it in marksmanship programs as well. This has its roots from B.F. Skinner's work on behavior modification. You can read much of this on the Internet, do a Google.Com search for B. F. Skinner or Operant Conditioning. You can also go to Killology Research Group: Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, Author - Jonesboro, Arkansas and read some of David Grossman's Articles on operant conditioning, I do not agree with everything he says, but when it comes to operant conditioning, he has the proof to back up his words."

jubaji

Which people?

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

jubaji

Is that why there are several threads over there at Socnet following the UFC?

Is that why I just saw a particularly long thread about controling someone on the ground on that very forum?

It seems the crusade isn't shared by all. Maybe its possible to look at things in a balanced perspective without becoming a shrieking little girl like BoringSpear?































You're braiding his hair right now, aren't you?

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

Mike Brewer

You always have to be careful when you lump "everyone" into a group based on a small cross section of bad experiences. If you aren't careful, you end up believing things like "Tai Chi is a slow form-based art that's primarily done for health reasons."

Of course, it all depends on the training, the overall approach, and the mindset of the participants. Making a decision and pushing a belief that ALL of any group, MMA athletes or otherwise, believe a certain way is wrong from the outset.

I know and train with lots and lots of "MMA guys" who are as solid as fighters can be. They like the sport, so they train it, but they are proven operators who've been in more real-world skirmishes and firefights than anyone bothered to count. They don't discount a thing. They don't go around calling others "inferior" or write off other martial arts. In fact, most of them have been exposed to a great deal and end up respecting other approaches more than most people do.

I just think it's incredibly narrow-minded and shallow to assume that because one knows people who are shitheads, that all people who do what they do are shitheads as well. It's that attitude that makes people believe that one art or style is better than another, that a style can overcome a person, or that you're a bad guy because you vote one way or the other. Having an attitude of "the mentality of superiority that came about in the early 90's" is no different than the attitude of superiority one has in renouncing things like MMA just because he's met some bad apples. If you can stand there and say you hate them and look down on them because they hate others and look down on them, what difference is there between you and them?

And when you take that so far as to say someone is a sell-out, a pussy, and a man without character because he trains some of the things you don't like? Well honestly, TTE - that sounds like a serious case of "superiority syndrome" to me.

kingoftheforest

I think maybe this is turning into another thread here............

Let's maybe try and get back to the original topic guys.

This is very true Tom but at the same time it never hurts to train as hard as you can when you can. You never know when you need it and it's better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.

__________________
These opinions and views described above may not be the opinion of forum moderators or owners. These are owned only by this forum member protected by his 1st amendment rights. You do not have to agree with these views.

This punch is heavier than life.
Treat other people as you would like to be treated

[