jubaji

That's true too, for sure. My point was just that BoringSpear's hairstylist there shouting "Operant conditioning, baby! You can't argue with that, its science!" was a silly generalism by a half-wit just clinging to a term to try and declare himself beyond question. A very BoringSpear approach, to be sure.

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Mike Brewer

You've kind of hit on the heart of the discussion there, jubs. Except for your obligatory name calling and needless provocation, you make the point that no one approach can (or should) cover all the bases. Just because Operant Conditioning is a valid approach in many training systems for many different skill sets, it's hardly the total picture, nor is it sufficient (or even effective) at training some skill sets.

Classical conditioning has its place. Operant conditioning has its place. Skinner didn't have all the answers, and neither did Pavlov. For that matter, there's a serious difference in "behavioral training" and "conceptual learning." Learning and conditioning are not always the same things. Not to turn this into a hack version of behavioral psych 101, but there are aspects of behavior that don't fit neatly into either model. Classical and operant conditioning advocates agree that a behavior that results from something temporary, like getting drunk or taking drugs, are not "learned" behaviors. Yet, they'll agree that people "learn" addictions because of the stimulus/response relationship. Lots of things qualify as knowledge without qualifiying as "behaviors," too. Calculus, for example, isn't a behavior.

Anyway, I'm getting off track.

The need to make a training method fit inside a nice neat little box is exactly and precisely the kind of thing that leads some people (who shall henceforth remain nameless) to say that "All MMA people have an attitude of superiority." The willingness to lump all people within a given demographic into a mass characterization or generalization leads to all kinds of errors. These are made ever worse when one is stuck in an incorrect way of thinking (mass generalizations that don't reflect reality), but who still insists on forming opinions based on several incorrect conclusions.

By way of example, I used to teach a lot of wilderness survival and land navigation stuff. One of the common mistakes people make when they get lost is they try to mentally change the map to fit what they see. In other words, they'll decide (rather than deduce) that they are at a given point on the map. They look to the left and see a hill, and in their mind, they make that hill look like the one on the map, even though the contours are all wrong. They see a creek, and even though it isn't there on the map, they decide it should be. Their compass says they're heading east, but they "feel" like they ought to be going north, so they ignore the compass. The picture they have in their head - their mental map of the world - is wrong, and so every decision they make comounds the problems they face. Little things turn into very big things, because they're just not reflecting reality.

Occasionally, it's better just to sit down, take a minute, and get your bearings. You have to be willing to admit you may have been hasty in building your picture of the world around you, and you have to be willing to admit that maybe your convictions are wrong. No matter how deeply you believe that the hill to your left might be the one on the map, you have to be willing to look closely and recognize that the contours are wrong. When and if you can manage that, it becomes a little easier for you to see that not all MMA guys practice with utter disdain for all other systems, not all Tai CHi guys are old people who practice for health reasons in the park, and maybe not all Conservatives believe literally in the book of Genesis (that's for you, Arieson. I know you're reading this...). Once again, it's all back to the issue of being able to judge each person and each situation for what it is.

Consider some of the drawings meant to show that different perceptions can linger on long after an objective observer would begin to see something else.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...lysis/fig2.gif

This one shows the face of a man. Most people "decide" it's a man's face and still see that image long after an objective observer would see something else altogether. If we can make such mistakes with a simple drawing, imagine what happens after decades of training in a particular way! How that must color our perceptions, eh?

jubaji

Right you are.

For anyone interested, I would recommend checking out Vygotsky's writings on developmental psychology and thinking about how they apply to MA.

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TTEscrima

Actual quote verses the one you're claiming was made. That would be spinning my statement into a lie so you can steer the thoughts and conversation to your liking. I see why you and Boar bumped heads, he's not a fan of people who intentionally misconstrue words to create wiggle room either. No where did I say ALL MMA people do anything, but you changed the statement to a false generalization that implies things I never said or intended. Somehow I suspect it's the wordplay games like this that caused Boar to point out you skewing conversations with an agenda, there was no reason for you to attribute that to me except to belittle me and show how wrong I was and yet I never said it. When the discussion doesn't suit you, making up things to weaken the other persons position only shows your position needed support you were unable to provide so you attribute false statements to the other side and attack the false statements, Boar isn't the only one who will tire of that BS rather quickly.

Ed Parker said it best, "try to lengthen your own line, don't try shortening everyone else's." That looks like a lesson many here could learn from.

Mike Brewer

What a crock of shit. I bumped heads with Boar because he's an uptight, arrogant piece of shit that can take neither jokes nor criticisms and who's even worse at taking apologies or admitting when he's wrong.

Boar is famous here for his solid knowledge of all kinds of things. He is famous for being one of the best sources of information on TCMA around. He is also famous for being a complete baby when it comes to people who disagree with him, and for his ability to overstate, misconstrue, and flat out lie when it suits him. He said things about me and others here that were not true in any context, and he wasn't above taking any cheap shot that fit his agenda. Talk about not being able totake a punch, he went from telling me my service to my country was dishonorable because I was a PSYOP soldier to telling me I was a sell-out because I used MMA training methods to taking cheap shots at me for taking a security job to feed my family. For all hisw many merits and positive traits, Boar's ability to embody hypocrisy is something still virtually unparalelled here at Defend.net.

You weren't here for those arguments, so I fully understand your willingness to stand by your instructor. I'm not trying to change your mind or challenge your loyalty. I didn't want to make this a Mike and Boar thread, and I've tried to drop it several times now, TTE. I want to seriously suggest that you let it die.

My statement about the MMA attitude of superiority was purposeful. Boar is not an MMA guy. Boxing and wrestling do not mean MMA. Different animal. Boar has said he doesn't train MMA, but that he "knows a lot of people who do." Uh huh. I know a lot of black people. Does that make me black? He has a lot of prejudices toward MMA, which was clearly obvious in his accusations that I was a "sell out" for even suggesting that MMA training and techniques had any value at all. He has also shown an awesome capacity for lumping whole groups of people together and judging them by the actions of some. You do it regularly, too. Whether it is calling other tai chi people idiots because they don't read the same translations of classics that you do, or whether it's inserting yourself into an argument I had with Boar long before you ever knew about this board, you're showing precisely the kind of inability to be honestly self-critical that he did. Maybe something to that...

Of course, I tend to agree with you on most things, and I don't mind the things we disagree on because you seem to be man enough to argue issues without taking things too personally. I'd like to make sure things stay that way, and so I want to suggest that we not discuss Boar anymore. That argument was and is between he and I, and it doesn't need to play out again through proxies. Let that one go, please. I'm sure we can find all kinds of things to argue about all on our own.

TTEscrima

You're twisting things again, you misquoted ME, not Boar. Boar mentioned your penchant for evading, redirecting, and inventing information as his biggest beef and I'm seeing it fist hand in the last posts that's why I commented on it. Your beef with Boar is yours although you certainly won't be alone in disagreeing or disliking him, I honestly believe he enjoys it. He's from a family that has a great reputation in the Military and they're known for teaching people what they need to know to survive, not for making friends, they wear the asshole badge with pride.

As for Boar not being a MMA guy, he's been practicing Judo, Jujutsu, boxing, wrestling, MT, kickboxing, etc long before the term MMA and it's associated mentality became cool. As he explains it he doesn't lube up before a match, or fight in his underwear or any other specialized outfit geared to fit the rules of the particular sport, nor does the size or weight class of his opponents decide who they can and can't be. However he knows the sports and he's damn good at them.There are several MMA schools including the Gracie academy close by and we have an open door policy for them to come in, Boar welcomes them in and plays with them before passing them on to the rest of us so we can experience their current curriculum. I've also got extensive knowledge of the sport arts but I'm no MMA guy either, however I know the MMA game plus the skills of arts not included in the MMA collection unlike the people with MMA backgrounds alone who constantly slam the TMA's here. That being said, If everyone else stops slamming Boar and calling him names I'll be happy to stop discussing him and his teachings although if Jubaji cant run around bringing old Boar posts back god knows what he'll do with his time.

Mike Brewer

You were speaking for Boar, were you not? You described his attitude and bias. Then, you said "I can see why you and Boar bump heads" and proceeded to tell me all about how "he doesn't like people who intentionally misconstrue things." I find that odd, since he was a true DaVinci at doing just that.

At any rate, last time. No more about the Boar.

Tant01

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While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

jubaji

...............................

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TTEscrima

That says it all. People are interested in the CMA's but no one wants to put up with the posers and frauds trolling the CMA forum when you post here.

Mike Brewer

And for clarity's sake:

I'm not asking you to stop talking about Boar or defending him. I'm asking you to stop inserting yourself into an argument he and I had. Like I said, I'm sure we'll have more than enough to argue about based on just our conversations. No need to try and dig those old ones up and put yourself in the middle of a thing that never involved you. Especially since there's no way for you to have any real perspective on it in the first place. After all, you don't even have access to both sides of that story, so your perspective will inevitably be biased and skewed. Best just to allow our opinions of each other to be formed on their own merits.

As for defending him when other people talk shit? That's fine. You can even defend him when I talk shit. Just don't dredge that same argument up again is all.

kingoftheforest

Is that for EVERYONE on the forum or just us?

Cause I didn't see anyone from our camp start bumping up old argument threads like they were serving hotcakes did you?

I saw somebody who likes to start shit doing it though didn't you?

I could bring up the old argument that I'm tired of people from other "camps" and "cults" starting shit on here the minute people from "The Cult of the Borespewer" start posting, and seemingly getting no reprimanding for it, but **** it guys

Can We Just Talk About The Subject At Hand!

for chrissake ignore the assholes, ignore the bullshit, ignore the little man in the singlet entrenched behind his keyboard crying out for some kind, any kind, of attention from anyone cyber or real, ignore the 18 year old know it all and the 40 year old wanna be. Just explain why you feel the way you do, back it up with what you can, and f it.

Because no matter what people will believe what they want, assholes will stay assholes, and people who want it all now without work will stay clueless losers.

'nuff said.

Now touch hands and I wanna see a good clean discussion gentlemen.

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Mike Brewer

Well, since you guys live there and are far, far closer to it (even having participated in it from time to time) it goes far more for you than anybody else on the boards.

And as I said many posts back...

I apologize. Sorry for side tracking things.

(Psst: That's code for "Hey! Let's all move the fu*k on and drop it before I have to delete all these goddamned posts and close the thread!)

jubaji

That's a helluva job of getting back to the subject at hand...

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Tom Yum

Hey, what happened to using 'helluva' ?

Just playin'.

Back to the discussion...

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