cheech

There are certainly more than 3 internal styles, but Hsing I, Tai Chi, and Baqua are the three most well known internal styles quoted, and each differs enough to warrant inclusion. Linear forms in Baqua? I don't know enough about the different styles and variations to say w/ certainty. I don't know Baqua and am a long way from being an expert. I only learned two forms, and they were both circle walking. Linear techniques were present in both. I've seen linear drills, which are technically forms if taught as such. Not sure if this answers your question.

cheech

This question wasn't directed at me, but as ttruscott stated that he didn't receive instruction on how to use his back, I thought I'd jump in. In at least one dragon style of kungfu and white eyebrow the back is used to issue power by starting w/ a curved back, then straightening when issuing power. Of course, as w/ any grounded technique, the arms, shoulders, back, hips and legs are all used, but extra power is claimed by including the straightening action. Obviously white eyebrow and dragon style kungfu are not Baqua, but there's usually a lot of overlap between styles.

kingoftheforest

Lets see I am not going to point out who said what specifically because I really didn't want to rehash what will most likely turn into the same old argument. This is just going to be a blanket commentary on what differs from all the teachings I had in the past seven years.

If you don't agree by all means please feel free to converse without fear of the usual sarcasm from me since this is going to be moderated heavily from what I've been told, theoretically in a fair and balanced manner. However I also reserve the right to bow out when I feel the scales of justice are tilting

With that said...........

First and foremost the Chinese martial community and as far as I know most of the martial world agree that there are only 3 internal martial arts. Bagua, Hsing I, and Tai Chi

There are several styles of each of these arts (Chen being a style of Bagua I have never heard of. The closest thing I could find was Chen Pa Ling but I cannot find any connection to the Martial Chen family lineage and more importantly he does Wushu. Wushu is post communist takeover martial arts. The communist made sure that there are no real martial applications in Wushu to prevent another boxer rebellion type incident. The other various styles of these arts were basically developed by people with either smaller or larger frames than the original practitioner causing slight variations but the doctrine and basic movements are the same.

Second the 3 internal arts give power to strikes by using a whipping motion. This is generated from the waste and the body is kept loose and relaxed through out the strike. Any time the frame is stiffened the power is lost. This is due to muscles contracting and pulling against one another. When you stiffen any power is generated through muscular force. This defeats the rule of efficient motion plus it doesn't set up your next strike without having to rechamber your whole body. Not having to rechamber is a whole nother difference in these arts and external arts. The internal arts flow as if one continuous movement at the expense of sounding cliche, like waves crashing on the beach.

Next there are breathing exercises that are for conditioning and promoting more blood flow to specific parts of the body. This is done through specific timings in breathing and using specific breathing patterns. These are not usually applied in combat since your body knows how to breathe already, or it should from the conditioning, and you have much much more important things to worry about in a fight besides how to breathe. If you have time to think about your breathing in a fight then bust out the pillows and get ready to watch a movie afterwards because you and whoever you are fighting are just dicking around.

Finally, does it take a long time lots of work and effort to learn an internal art? Hell yes! It takes all these things to learn anything new. That's why Shoalin has external arts. When the shit hit the fan they didn't have 18 years to train monks in internal arts when there was a war going on so they taught them external ones to speed up the process.
So you say "What do I do if it takes so long?". My answer is do you live in a war zone? Are you constantly being attacked? Is some one trying to burn down your home on a 24/7 basis? If you answered no to these then you have time to learn an internal art.

On a final note most people prop up their internal art with things from external arts because it's hard to get it right or it takes to long to learn and people want to whore out their art and make money from it now not later. If your looking for something to master in 5-6 years or less so you can open your own Dojo or whatever you want to call your school then internal arts are not for you. In fact people like that art even real martial artists in my book. That's the problem now a days people have polluted the original doctrine of the internal arts because they are in a hurry.

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cheech

I usually also see piqua and white crane classified as soft styles. Considering the large number of "family" styles, I'd expect there to be a lot more styles that are considered primarily internal styles. But the big three are most definitely Tai Chi, Baqua, and Hsing I.

kingoftheforest

Piqua is actually part of an art called baji they were normally paired together.
White Crane however is definitley an external style like all the Shoalin animal styles are.

White crane is slightly influenced by Taoist martial arts however and I can see where the confusion might be.

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kingoftheforest

Here is an article by Tim Cartmell. He spent several years and literally 10 million dollars in China finding some of the greatest and unfortunately last surviving in most cases owners of the lineages for the internal CMA's. In this article he helps define internal from external much better than I can. He also published a series of journals called the Bagua Journals. Although they cover more than just Bagua.

Tim Cartmell's Internal VS. External Article first published in Inside Kung Fu Magazine July/1992

If you really want clarification read this.

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Mike Brewer

Genuinely and sincerely - Thank you.

Please keep the information coming, everybody.

kingoftheforest

Man I left that wide open and nobody took the shot?

There is actually a fourth internal art called Liu he ba fa or Six harmonies Eight methods. Also known as water boxing.

This is basically a combination of the other 3 internal arts into one style.

I've had a few PM's asking some specific questions so as soon as I get some time I will formulate a few answers, got a youngin' to take care of and of course training. But just a heads up I'll field those here soon guys.

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kingoftheforest

Let's see where to start hmmmm

First the fluid loose punch with the snap at the end that was mentioned in the article by Mr. Cartmell and how most fighting arts aim for this type of strike. Most arts including Western Boxing attempt to use this type of strike and succeed to sum degree after training long enough. The main differences are that like most external arts boxing uses the power generated from one select muscle group or body section. This is known as sectional power. This also robs the strike of some of the power it could potentially produce. Boxing doctrine emphasis and solid base where the attacks are thrown from. This is a stationary root.

What's that KOTF stationary? But boxers also emphasis foot work too right?

Well that is correct but at the same time boxing like most external arts you have to "set down" or "plant" in order to generate power. Kind of like firing artillery if the cannon were moving when fired it wouldn't generate the same power or be as accurate as it does on a stable base.

I am in no way attempting to take away from or belittle Western Boxing only just attempting to point out the difference. Internal arts have a more "floating" root. Where as in boxing you use head bobs and weaving to avoids strikes, you also use foot work but while dodging and weaving or moving it's hard to throw a powerful strike.
In internal arts the whole body is connected so foot work is the major mode of avoiding strikes while at the same time you can use the power generated during the movement of avoidance to strike the opponent with tremendous force. Like in Bagua you step around your opponent aiming for the most advantages position which would be behind him, at the same time the circular stepping movement generates the power for your strike, so while stepping with the feet your arms are throwing whip like strikes into the opponent allowing for dodging his strike while wreaking havoc on him.

Since the strikes are generated with the whole body the waist is doing a constant twisting and releasing motion, much like the spring that Mr. Cartmell used as an example. If you wind up a yo yo on a string and hold it by the non yo yo end it will twirl one direction and once it binds to a certain point untwirl. The waist does a similar thing in internal arts causing one side of the body to be constantly chambered and one side constantly releases attacks in alternating sides. Think Chuck Berry but not as exaggerated. Most external arts rechamber at the shoulder like Karate's reverse punch or boxing's strait rights and lefts and even hooks.

Feel free to ask question I may have left some things out even after 7 years I still feel I'm a beginner at this.

Also someone asked me to go in depth about the comment I made

The question was asked can you train an internal and external art at the same time for the "in case" situation. First and foremost understand that if you are in an altercation in the street you should have the mindset that this IS combat. To be defeated in combat has always been akin to death. You should always go all out if you fear you are being threatened with harm when someone attacks you PHYSICALLY. Verbal abuse is not something to be dealt with using physical violence.

I personally feel that it is possible to train both at one time as long as you keep it balanced and attempt to apply as much of the doctrine from the internal art to the external one. A lot of external arts flow from the internal ones.

Now my next comment has been met with criticism pretty much always so before I begin. Sports have their place in the world and they are great for entertainment and staying healthy. I have loads of respect for the people who practice sport oriented martial arts however sports oriented martial arts cannot be practiced with combat martial arts. These are two greatly differing mindset and they just don't mesh.
You can make real fur coats for a living and be an animal rights activist it just doesn't work.

With that said if you do practice an external art along side an internal one make sure the mindset is the same. If you are going to practice Bagua don't make your external art Boxing or BJJ. The rules that apply and the doctrine and strategies as well don't mesh with those of Bagua it would be counter productive. Something like one of the animal styles or even Kali, while be a centerline oriented art, would still mesh better because the mindsets and doctrines are very similar and there is a better flow to these external arts. Also make sure your external art doesn't rely to heavily on large amounts of muscle. External arts work with muscle close to the bones if you pile huge muscles on top of this it will make you stiffer and the "whole body" connectivity will be harder to gain if not impossible.

Well I hope that covers most of it anything I missed please feel free to discuss I'm busy a lot but I get on here a few times a day.
KOTF.

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jubaji

And what "one select muscle group or body section" would that be?

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kingoftheforest

That would be the shoulder and the arm muscles. I figured it would be pretty obvious to anyone who has trained it so I didn't feel I needed to add the basics on a forum of people who train in these arts.

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kingoftheforest

I think if you go back and read everything I said in the post the answer to that is pretty obvious.

Seems you can't help but try to start up the same old arguments everytime we try to discuss something like this though. And I am also sure you will attempt to hide behind the old

"It was just an inane question too".

If you're going to be the only person posting in this thread though then I guess I am wasting my time with the info and explanations since we all know where you stand on this subject. We all know when it comes to these threads you are only here to disrupt no matter how innocent you pretend to be. There are thousands of posts that can prove that as well as several locked threads. This is obviously going no where again.

Regardless of what the anyone may say we all have seen time and time again when you start your one liners it's just to start shit.

Sorry Mike looks like you're gonna miss out on this one too.

Bye
KOTF

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jubaji

If you think boxers only use their shoulders and arms it would seem that you are basing your theories on some false assumptions. Didn't you say yourself that boxers plant their feet to generate power? What would the purpose of that (to the extent that its true) be if their punches were just a matter of shoulder/arm?

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jubaji

And so why have soldiers training for combat always practiced sports/combat martial arts during training and as recreation outside of training? How could that be if they are so incombatible?

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TTEscrima

TAIJI QUAN COMBAT

Tai Ji Quan is a martial art is based on the principle of the soft overcoming the hard. Direct opposition of another's force is strictly discouraged, and great emphasis is placed upon borrowing the force of the opponent and using it to one's own advantage. Belonging to the schools of the so-called "soft" martial arts, Tai Ji Quan training is designed to cultivate a relaxed, flexible and sensitive body along with a calm and focused intent. The Tai Ji Quan fighter is trained to absorb and neutralize incoming force, join with the opponent by sticking to his center, and issue force at the appropriate time and angle with the power of the entire body. By following the principle of giving up the self and following others, the Tai Ji Quan fighter is able to use an opponent's own strength against him, thereby allowing the weaker and slower to overcome the stronger and faster opponent.

Another hallmark of Tai Ji Quan as a combat art is that it has, as its foundation, the principle of natural movement. All the movements and techniques of the Tai Ji Quan Arts are based upon natural strengths and reactions. Because training is less a matter of conditioning new responses as refining inborn abilities, real fighting ability can be cultivated in the Tai Ji Quan arts faster than most other styles of martial arts. The diligent student of Tai Ji Quan, properly trained, will have acquired real self defense ability in a matter of months, as opposed to the years of training required in many other martial systems.

The primary combat strategy of Tai Ji Quan can be summed up in the phrase "Entice (the opponent) to advance, (cause the opponent to) fall into emptiness, unite (with the opponent) then throw (the opponent) out" [Yin jin, luo kong, he ji chu]. Enticing the opponent to advance (advance refers to the opponent's aggressive forward momentum) can be as simple as standing in front, presenting an open target or launching a preemptive attack designed to draw a reaction. Enticing the opponent into aggressive forward momentum has several advantages. Firstly, just like the arrow released from the bow, a committed attack cannot change direction until its momentum is spent. Such an attack affords the Tai Ji Quan fighter time and opportunity to gain the superior position for effective counter attack. Secondly, a powerful, committed attack almost invariably requires whole body motion. Once the opponent's whole body is in motion (and his center of balance is in flux) it becomes possible to unbalance him with a relatively small force (correctly applied). For example, it requires a relatively large force to foot-sweep an upright and stationary opponent to the ground. However once the opponent moves his center of mass forward as he takes a step, a sweep to the stepping foot just before it touches the ground will send the opponent crashing to the ground with a very slight effort. This type of technique is referred to as "Moving a thousand pounds with a force of four ounces." Finally, enticing an opponent into aggressive forward motion locks his mentality into the attack mode. With committed focus on attacking, the opponent will be slow in changing to the defensive mind set as the Tai Ji Quan fighter counterattacks. The opponent's reaction time is delayed, further increasing the counterattacks odds of success; this allows the Tai Ji Quan fighter to "leave after yet arrive first."

"Falling into emptiness"is analogous to the principle of never using force against force. The Tai Ji Quan Classics state "Some have practiced tens of years but are still defeated by others: this is because they have not recognized their illness of double

What is the method that makes it possible to entice the opponent to enter, cause him to fall into emptiness, unite with him and then throw him out? For that matter, what separates Tai Ji Quan (or the internal/soft style) techniques from all other types of techniques? The answer lies in one underlying skill; namely, the ability to "stick adhere, continue and follow" [Zhan, nien, lian, sui]. Stick and Adhere refer to connecting with the opponent in a soft and nonconfrontational manner and maintaining this connection as you both move (blocking an opponent's incoming force inevitably results in the opponent being knocked away. This makes it impossible to join with the opponent and one is doomed to remaining double weighted). Continue and Follow refer to "giving up oneself and following the other" by continuously following the opponent's movement and changes in order to maintain your connection. In this Situation, you may constantly monitor the opponent's actions and intent while seeking the time and opportunity to join with and lead his center, thereby bringing him under your control.

One may ask, "what exactly are we sticking to and following?" Do we stick to the opponent's arms? His torso? The answer is we stick to the opponent's center of gravity (his pelvic region). In Tai Ji Quan technique this is rarely achieved by direct contact (a useful example to help understand the concept of sticking to and controlling an opponent's center is the wrestler, who routinely sticks to his opponent's center directly, as when applying the popular bear hug). Most often, the Tai Ji Quan fighter will seek to stick to and control the opponent's center through contact with his arms and/or upper torso, using these regions as handles to the opponent's center. In order to maintain control of the opponent’s center, the point of contact with the opponent will often change in the course of an exchange. The ability to stick, follow and control an opponent's center in the midst of motion is cultivated in the various push hands drills found in all styles of Tai Ji Quan.

The Techniques of Tai Ji Quan are primarily grappling oriented. Although practitioners are trained to strike with all parts of the body, purely percussive techniques (strikes designed to cause local tissue damage) are far less common than the grappling oriented techniques which include pushing, pulling, twisting, sweeping, locking, throwing and knocking. Techniques such as these are designed to control the opponent's center and displace him in space.

All Tai Ji Quan techniques are combinations of the energies of the Eight Techniques: ward off, roll back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow and body stroke [peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao]. In its broadest sense, ward off energy can he applied to the whole body. It is the energy resulting from proper alignment and relaxation which gives the Tai Ji Quan fighter the elasticity and springiness necessary to fight. In a stricter, technical sense, ward off is the energy which supplies buoyancy and supports weight (as soft and flexible water is able to support a massive ship). Roll back is energy which moves incoming force past one's body toward the rear (as a revolving door gives way and pivots around its center). Press is the force which rebounds from the ground up in a pulse and bounces the opponent away from the body (as a rock bounces off the taught head of a drum). Push is a force which puts pressure downward (like the force used when you lift your body out of a pool by pressing the palms down on the outside deck). Pluck is a sudden, downward jerking force towards the rear of one's own body (like the force used to pluck an apple from a tree). Split is the energy of coupling (force applied in parallel but opposite directions which causes a rotation around their center point); it is the force generated when you turn a steering wheel with both hands on the sides of the wheel. Elbow is whole body ward off power focused through the elbow (think of closing a car door with your elbow when your hands are full). Body stroke is whole body ward off power channeled through some part of the torso, usually the shoulder (think of breaking a door down by leaning into it with your shoulder). All the various techniques of Tai Ji Quan, including throwing, locking, kicking and striking, are combinations of these eight energies.