TTEscrima

In order to create whole body power in the Ba Gua Zhang format, as well as to facilitate the agile and evasive footwork utilized in the Art, all styles of Ba Gua Zhang emphasize complete physical relaxation, correct skeletal alignment, natural movements which are in harmony with the body's inborn reflexes and inherent design and that all movements are directed by the intent.

It is the fighting strategy of Ba Gua Zhang which most sets it apart from all other styles of martial art. Dong Hai Quan's unique background and combat experience, combined with his talent, resulted in a strategy of personal combat that had remained undiscovered in the preceding millennia of martial development in China. Basically, Ba Gua Zhang fighting theory advocates the complete avoidance of opposing power with power and adopts a kind of guerilla warfare mentality. The Ba Gua Zhang fighter continuously seeks to avoid the apex of the opponent's force and attacks or counterattacks from the opponent's weak angles. By circling around and circumventing incoming force and resistance, the Ba Gua Zhang fighter applies his own whole body power from a position of superiority This strategy allows the smaller and weaker fighter to apply maximum force from an angle at which the larger and stronger opponent cannot resist, effectively making the weaker fighter more powerful at that moment (for example, I have 10 units of total strength and my opponent has 20. I attack with my full 10 units of strength at an angle at which my opponent is only able to use 5 units of his total strength. I am, at that moment, literally twice as strong as my opponent).

In order to obtain a superior position, the Ba Gua Zhang fighter applies the basic strategies trained in the solo forms' practice, that is, circling around the opponent or rotating the opponent around oneself. The result is the same in both cases. The Ba Gua Zhang fighter avoids a head to head confrontation with the opponent's power and obtains a superior position from which to attack. Along the way, the opponent often becomes entangled in the Ba Gua Zhang fighter's limbs and loses control of his center of balance (correctly applied momentum overcomes brute strength every time). This loss of balance causes a commensurate loss of power and further weakens the opponent, leaving him vulnerable to the Ba Gun Zhang fighter's attack. Finally, the relaxed physical and mental state of the Ba Gua Zhang fighter makes it possible for him to change and adapt as the situation demands. His movements are spontaneous and difficult to predict. Fighters of all disciplines agree that the unpredictable fighter is the hardest to beat (especially when he circles behind you!).

cheech

I thought Piqua was a distinctly different style from baji. Live and learn.

kingoftheforest

When separate Piqua and Baji do look very different from each other. The reason for this is that they are sister arts where Baji is the yang side and is harder and more linear and Piqua is the yin side and is softer and more round.

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Mike Brewer

Guys,
Let's avoid the arguing on this thread. Questions are fair, but I really want this to stay educational. Disagreements can be addressed in other threads.

jubaji

"How" is kind of a big question. There are an awful lot of techniques/moves/whatever in taijiquan that are based on 'unbalancing' if you will, setting up throws, trips, strikes and such. The white crane speads its wings, flash the back, Buddha's warrior attendant pounds mortar and all that sort of thing.

I'm certainly nobody's expert in taijiquan. I studied under Chen Quanzhong in Xi'an for a few years and I practice stuff on my own, but I'm a wrestler. I reckon I know just enough to know when someone is making fantastic, unrealistic, or exaggerated claims. On the other hand, I've seen folks who only trained in taijiquan, and nothing else, mixing it up in street violence and I certainly can't agree with any folks who say (and so many do) that tai chi is useless for real self defense, etc.

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ttruscott

Ok, catching up here...

who ever asked me about bagua use of the back - I can't answer because (as I said) I got no instruction on that. None. Nada.

As for Chen bagua: since no one has heard of Chen bagua and since the references I gave the url to all point to a Chen Tai Chi site, I can't believe all the fuss...

I practise Chen Style Tajiquan, the Practical Method of Hong Jungshen through Chen Zhonghua.

I dropped my studies of bagua and Lo He Ba Fa once I realised I was getting proper internal instruction from Chen taiji.

We do not use the word "relaxed" but use "released" instead. Muscles are only used to create structure and never for power, especially in the shoulders and arms.

I am just a beginner and can't speak for the style.

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TTEscrima

Piqua is different, however it is nearly always taught alongside Baji, Piqua is the Yin aspect and Baji is the yang. The two together make a complete system separate they both lack components needed for application.

TTEscrima

Oops didn't read the whole thread before commenting, didn't mean to step your toes.

TTEscrima

Interesting take on it but you might want to remember that most people with 40 plus years in the Internal arts will tell you they're still newborns, so a couple of years training in the internal arts doesn't give you any insight into the art at all. The founders all said it took 45 years or until your beard turned white before you could garner enough understanding to be able to understand the art well enough for your opinion to be valued. I believe it was Musashi who said "until you understand something it doesn't exist in your world". It's been my experience that if you try to use a technique in a fight you will lose. Things like "The white crane speads its wings, flash the back, Buddha's warrior attendant pounds mortar" are not for fighting, they develop muscles and connections so that when you fight you can use non technique, that's perhaps one of the most commonly misunderstood aspects of the internal arts and common among beginners. If you want to grasp the true aspects you need a teacher for more than a few years.
Beginners ALWAYS rely too much on muscle and are incapable of understanding the power because of this, it takes many years to learn since as you learn to use less muscle the usage and abilities change drastically. You can't use power from connections you haven't created yet.

If you look at how long it takes to create a champion boxer, it should be evident it is going to take longer to train in art that uses more than 1 of the seven weapons available. I believe the average is 5-7 years for a pro boxer. I wouldn't expect someone with two years boxing to be able to comprehend all the subtleties and certainly someone with a couple of years of Tai Chi is doing a disservice by offering advice or claiming to comprehend it. That would explain your quite negative initial post about its usefulness. After all any art in which you've only scratched the surface of is only useful for an equally untrained opponent eh?

TTEscrima

My bad, I misunderstood this post to say until you got instruction from the Chen's you didn't learn to use your back in Baqua.

jubaji

Was my post "quite negative"? I didn't mean to be. Did I use the word "only" in my post? I don't recall.


I've quite a few other questions about your post, but since I don't have 45 years experience like you I guess I wouldn't even be able to understand your answers...oh well. I'll just have to be content to sit back and enjoy the lectures. Carry on.

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kingoftheforest

It's all good glad to see if at least one person has had the same concept I'm not too far off the mark.

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TTEscrima

Since we have the same teachers I'd be worried if we had different understandings!

kingoftheforest

Yeah I remember when I first started training and the older students told me I was as stiff as a board. After about 4 years I started to understand what they meant.

Now when I train with new people who come from arts like TKD or karate I can truly appreciate what they meant by that.

That stiffness is also what allows you to cause a person to overextend and unbalance them self making it easier to topple them. It's like a tree that doesn't bend in the wind, if a strong enough gust comes along something has got to give.

I have only been training for about 7 years as I said earlier and see myself no where near an expert in internal arts but having civil discussion with people on this board helps me learn and understand things I otherwise may not have gotten around to thinking about for a few more years. I am no authority on the subject by any means but the doctrine, tactics and basics core values of the art I feel I can explain with some confidence. I am not trying to change any minds (or lack thereof) here. I am just putting the art and the art that I love and the concepts that go with it out there for any who are interested.

Some one asked me if you can train in an internal and external art together and my answer was yes. Is this traditional? No not really. But it can be done.
All you have to do is attempt to apply the same rules that govern an internal art into the training of the external one.



In my opinionthis causes some problems because most art involve politics as well as fighting. The traditional family way of doing things is most arts from all cultures causes it to be hard if you have a traditional teacher when you try to apply certain concepts.

There is no one concept of the internal arts that is more important in my view than using the body as one unified unit to strike. Even when a kick is used to attack or a shoulder strike is used the whole body is behind it. Imagine when you "get a chill" how the movement runs up your spine and through your whole body. This is akin to concept. Now take that shiver and run it through your body and out through either your arm or leg. The power generated is enormous if the attack is then snapped at the end of the movement. This is where the fajin power comes from, that whole body shake and then the release.

That is an over simplified explanation but it was the first one I received that actual stuck and helped me understand.

Now someone asked in a PM to field how this differs from a boxing punch. At the expense of being attacked again I'll give this another shot since the person that asked seems genuinely interested in my opinion on this.

Let me first begin by saying I can see how the wording in some of my previous explanations could be taken the wrong way. I in no means have meant to slight boxing in anyway. In fact the first art I ever studied was western boxing. Boxing like most internal arts generates whats called sectional power. This means that the power moves through the body one section at a time. While a boxer may push with his foot he then turns with his waist using the power from the foot push off then using the power from the waist turning he pushes out his shoulder then using the power from the shoulder he pushes his arm forward and then using the foward momentum pushes his fist out to strike the opponent. Also a boxer turns his hand palm down when striking in what is known in CMA's as moon fist. This causes some of the power generated by the shoulder to dissipate due to the change in muscle alignment of the arm.

These movements differ from the power generated in whole unified body movement because each section of the body robs power from the last section to continue the movement. Can western boxers hit like a friggin' truck this way after training it long enough? Hell yes! And western boxers even have the snap at the end of the punch.
The difference is that in an internal style the practitioner uses the body like a whip so that it's more of a sinuous fluid motion where the whole body flicks at one time on one side without the sectional detours.

I hope this helps in clarifying what my intended prior commentary was. Once again I am by no means an expert just somebody trying to understand and help build a solid foundation on my understanding.

KOTF

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ttruscott

Sorry to be unclear.

The exercises I learned in Chen class have improved my access to and ability to work with my back immensely. I posted a short vid about it on my site:
Tai Chi Ends Lower Back Pain

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