ttruscott

You think karate is stiff? I was so stiff karate loosened me up! After 20 some years of karate, I found bagua which got me going in circles and FMA which taught my hands to go in circles.

Even my cello teacher is still fussing me to relax, arggh. Now I gotta learn how to release instead of relax.

But after all that hard style training, I would find it hard to apply the internal rules of the Practical Method to my karate because they are opposite what karate teaches.

Karate and CQC and FMA and everything else I have played with in the last 35 years ALL taught the unified body theory bringing the energy up from the ground and out the hand. Details were a bit different.

Until now.

The Practical Method as taught by Joseph Chen, splits the circle. The body is not unified in the way others peak of it but only in its working absolutely together but in opposite directions.

Splitting the circle means half your body must extend to the right to create power to the left, so your opponent on your left can feel it.

I've litteraly asked hundreds of tai chi players how their unified body theory is diffrent from karate's and never got a clear, physical answer.

But splitting the circle is so new, so different, and has such a profound physical effect an those touching the person doing it that I am totally captivated.

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kingoftheforest

Damn that is stiff I was comparing Karate to things like Tai Chi or Bagua. It's definitely isn't the stiffest thing out there. But compared to the 4 internal arts it's stiffer than they are. Kinda like T-bones and porter houses are steaks just different cuts of meat.



Actually if you look at pre-WWII karate you'll see that it is very similar to some mainland China martial arts. Even Shoalin's external styles manage to incorporate some of the internal styles principals. You hit it on the head when you began talking about circular movements. These can be applied to some techniques in Karate.

Lots of styles in the external category claim the unified body theory applies to them to but like I explained using the boxing punch, they all rob themselves of the power by doing it sectionally. It has a lot to do with muscle alignment and conditioning the muscles to work as a group.

In the external arts it's like this toy snake I had as a kid. You know the one thats made up of sections and if you hold it out it stays upright and wiggles side to side. Sometimes it would get stuck or need an extra push to keep going back and forth. If you swung it at somebody it would hurt like a sonuvabitch.

Now look at the way an internal fighter strikes as a bull whip. All one piece with no breaks in it. If you have every seen somebody swing a bull whip you know that that is gonna suck beyond belief. Another example of a fajin strike is a sneeze (yeah that's right achoo baby). When you sneeze if you don't hold back you feel it through your whole body. Now imagine being able to direct that force out thorough any extension of yourself.

Hope that might help a little more.
KOTF

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FoolsTP

i think chinese longfist is sort of like karate or something

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hi

TTEscrima

Karate is similar to Northern Longfist and it should be, that's where it came from.

Tant01

Splitting the circle...

A concept that I don't begin to understand outside of straight line stuff?

How do circular footwork based attacks and straight (centerline) attacks differ? The diagonal patterns of footwork in silat can be deceptive feints to open the center line targets.

That probably reveals my ignorance well enough? LOL

Sorry if my naivety is patronizing... I really am THAT new.

Thanks kindly.

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While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

kingoftheforest

Now this is the way I myself understand the difference between centerline and circular movement. I am sure their are other opinions out there and would be happy to see some detailed explanation of what they are so we can compare, grow, and learn from each other.

I'm sure there will be smart ass remarks for our viewing pleasure as well, which will hold no merit and have no more substance than they usually do. But we'll all get a good laugh like watching monkeys smoke cigarettes.

So here goes. What I understand is that with center line attacks you are only attacking from one line and changing direction is sometimes if not often difficult. Also block are usually block and attacks are usually attacks. Some arts incorporate blocks into attacks even with centerline, but most teach them separate.

With circular movement you cover a wide range of the target area between yourself and your attacker. You can also launch your attack from any point in the circle, making it somewhat more difficult to read and a bit easier to change directions. Also circular movement allows you to block an incoming attack and then continue into a strike, or throw all in the same motion. These are usually determined by what your opponent as well as your footwork is doing at the time. Remember your not the only one with input in a fight so your opponents position and movement as well as their reaction can change the outcome.

This is only my view and what I have gathered from my studies and what I was taught. This may not be agreed upon by others and that's fine. But at the end of the day this is still my understanding and belief.

Your free to study and formulate your own opinion as always.

Awesome question Tanto thanks for stimulating the brain cell and helping me to understand what I do better through discourse.

KOTF

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TTEscrima

That's one hell of a question and communicating by keyboard isn't likely to be easily accomplished. We cross train with a group of Kuntao/Silat practitioners from Willem Reeders lineage. Their system broke the circular stepping of Baqua into triangles. It's usually great fun to compare the different applications derived by replacing the circle with the triangle and vice versa. You might try marking the patterns on the floor with duct tape or masking tape and experimenting. The Baqua rule is either you are moving around the opponent in a circle (put the opponent in the middle of the grid) or you are moving the opponent around you (put them on the outside edge and you take the middle). Now try various techniques with these variables in place.

I can't seem to upload a picture or add an attachment in the CMA forums so go here and scroll to the bottom of the page.

Willem Reeders Family System of Kun Tao

FoolsTP

we're told that it's like there's a poll running through someones head down through their body and into the floor and that's what you are walking around. like if you walked around a tree or something.

it seems like a defensive and defeatist attitude to see it as you being in the center and your opponent being on the outside cause wouldn't it feel like you are not the one with the control?

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hi

TTEscrima

When you're in the middle it's because you don't need to circle the opponent. When dealing with untrained people, smaller people and beginners it's easy to deflect their power to the outside and send them around you. When facing larger, stronger of better trained fighters you use the evasive footwork to try to circle around behind them and use the angles to your advantage. Either way you are the one creating the circular power and causing your opponent to fight your fight, thats hardly a defeatist attitude. The concept is the core of Baqua, if you're not being taught this you might want to find a different teacher. Baqua is known for standing arm breaks and torquing the opponents spine both of which are accomplished by changing direction and taking the opponent around you. One moment you're moving around him in a circle, as he extends a limb to attack you seize it as you change the direction of the circular force into carrying him around you.This is the concept hidden in the first technique you should be learning, the single palm change.

TTEscrima

YouTube - Pukulan Pencak Silat Tempur "Evasions"

Tanto1 this is a clip of Reeders silat, if you note they "think" and move in triangles. Notice how tight all the moves are and how he is often even with the front foot of the adversary. Baqua uses the same evasion but steps in circular patterns (bigger) so that you're even with or behind the adversaries rear leg. The strikes would also likely be delivered with the opposite hand to make use of the power generated by the circular stepping. I've noticed the triangle is a half beat concept, thing is while it may be slightly faster it lacks finishing power.

Mike Brewer

I've been invited back into the thread (Yipee!!) so I wanted to address this statement. TTEscrima did it pretty well already, but since I'm a know-nothing on the actual topic of the thread, this is the only one I'm really qualified to answer.

In many martial arts (and martial sports) dominating the center is an important tactic. It's one of many, and I can't think of a single martial art I've ever even casually looked into that ONLY takes the center (in terms of footwork). Still, commanding the center is important for any number of reasons. First, it requires far less effort and movement on your part because you aren't forced to move around as much. It allows you to make the opponent move more, and in so doing, creates openings and fatigue in the opponent. There are times when taking the center simply means "pressing the fight." A fighter like Joe Frazier, for example, almost always took control of the center and forced his opponents all over the outside of the ring. In that sense, it means making the other person move in response to what you're doing rather than simply responding to what he's doing.

If you look at most great chess players, you'll find that they all have a handful of what they call openings. These are moves and combinations of moves that allow them to get strategic pieces on the board with the express purpose of controlling the center territory of the chessboard. In nearly every form of combat, controlling the center is important.

The only stretch for this is when you're dealing with multiple attackers and you're all by yourself. Then, you have to be on the end of a stack. You want to control the middle by stuffing people in line and putting yourself on the flank so that they have to fight through each other to get to you.

ttruscott

Straight-n blast, triangle stepping and circle stepping should be part of a full repetoire.

The circling is not just to try to get behind someone but to get him to twist to follow you so he is vulnerable to so many nice things, as TTEscrima sed:

"Baqua is known for standing arm breaks and torquing the opponents spine both of which are accomplished by changing direction and taking the opponent around you."

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"Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

Tant01

There's a paradox to the first rule of the fist... The circle defeats the straight line, the straight line defeats the circle thing in Kenpo...

At the most fundamental level linear attacks are more ecenomical and faster than circular attacks but the defensive strategy of karate just kills me.

I want offensive tactics in defense. Splitting the circle and controlling the center line is generally better than going around the attacker to strike from the weak line...

It's sort of tied in with taisabaki but I like crashing through the defensive line and having my way with toppling or striking or locking what ever comes toward me.

I also like stepping off the line and being someplace else when the aggression is linear.

I think I just need more practice at speed with intent. Football players are good opponents for tachiwaza... Wrap around throws and corner drops come to mind..

I'm rambling. Tell me how you like to deal with the two types of attacking.

Thanks bunches guys...

__________________
While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

ttruscott

Ahhh, got yah,

but


that is not what splitting the circle means...

All taijji is built upon the idea of yin and yang, right?

But most tai chi says, this part of the technique is the yin part and this next part is the yang part.


Chen Style, the Practical Method has both yin and yang in every move. In every move, if the hand goes out to the front, the back knee goes out to rear. If the front hand is retreating toward your own body, the front knee or foot must extend into the front away from the body, into the opponents space.

They call it paradoxical movement...

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"Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

Tant01

This is very good (and basic) stuff, my personal favorite! Thanks for sharing.

It seems the silat styles are very subtle but I wonder if the Kuntao/silat has more in common with the internal styles? (kung-fu)

It seems to me (fundamentally speaking) that the "secret" once we get past all the fancy footwork, deceptive evasion, striking and throwing (techniques)...is timing. (sensitivity and harmony with the actions of attack)

LOL It's the timing that kills me.

... ya know?

__________________
While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892