jubaji

.................................................

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Tant01

..................

I've been expecting Ju...


LOL

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While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

Mike Brewer

I give credit where it's due. He's been very, very respectful of the request not to start trouble in this thread, and it's highly appreciated.

Tant01

..............yup.

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While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

kingoftheforest

All I know is I trained in this type of movement for 5 years and trained in Iron Palm for 4 years. My first coconut break, which I was advised not to do, was a coconut between 2 pillows. I broke it with 1 strike from about 2 inches away with a palm strike.

My second break , also advised not to do, was wrapped in a towel and it was from about 3 inches also with a willow palm strike.

Neither time did I injure my hand at all.

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TTEscrima

I never could understand why they were so big on Iron palm until I met you, now that I've whacked you upside the head I understand, hitting bags of rocks ain't shit by comparison.

jonbey

This is really the key. You can do the same "style" of Tai Chi in 5 places, and each will be totally different. I have dabbled with tai chi many times (and never got that far) and practised Yang several times, and no two Yang clubs were the same. Some emphasise on energy, some on form, some on relaxation, some on applications, some on sticking hands, some on pushing hands. All different parts.

So, it really does depend on what your instructor has learnt, and what your instructor wants to teach.

Tai chi styles are pretty complete systems, when taught fully. But finding an instructor both willing and capable enough to teach is the real trick. And then you have to have the patience to learn to slow and hard way.

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ttruscott

I'll try again:


As a 30 year veteran of karate, I can attest to you being almost correct here. We usually do a 'drop step' or a 'step and then hit' procedure.

BUT: is the use of the empty step the difference between external and internal? If not, so what?? All styles do things different or there would not be different styles.

We are trying to work out the difference between internal and external in principle, no tin the manner of one technique or other.

So I suggest that the fact that tai chi does an empty step is not what makes it an internal style compared to the drop step of karate.

That is much too simplistic. Anyway, in some kata we actually do do an empty step so is karate partly internal?


Agreed in part, but, to be blunt, so what? Since empty stepping is not the definition of "internal who cares?

AND,
What happens to the hips once the empty foot is on the ground? A tai chi player must finish the move according to the unified body principle, right?

Does not the unified body principle tell you (in essence) to turn the hips, torso and shoulders toward the target, drive from the foot and straighten the knee all at the same time together, to provide power toward the target?

What you might not know is that these are the exact instructions for a proper 'step and punch' in karate. So how does the unified body principle create a difference between internal tai chi and external karate?


Apparently you have no experience with Shorin-ji Karate or, at least, the Shorin-ji Karate from Sensei Richard Kim, late of the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai.

He taught us this principle as a guiding principle of our style of karate. If you don't see it in other karate, oh well - that doesn't mean it is an 'internal' rather than 'external' principle.

But please take a look at Tak's karate in the video link provided. He follows this principle correctly as far as I can see. Perfectly. What is moving when his fist stops? Don't forget the shaking of fa-jing does not count as "moving" either.

SO,

I'm sorry to "not be convinced" but I have had almost as many years with bad tai chi as good karate. I'm sorry if my attempts to define good proper tai chi precisely in non-karate terms forces you to dig deep. I'm sure it is there - let's not just call me a fool for knowing how karate moves, ok?

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kingoftheforest

Since we're being blunt. If you want to know the differences between internal and external read the article by Tim Cartmell I posted earlier on in the thread.
It cover exactly those points and very well I might add.

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This punch is heavier than life.
Treat other people as you would like to be treated

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TTEscrima

Well it's a difference in their postures. Postures or stances are defined as combinations of the arms ands legs and how they correlate to the torso. Different postures create different connections inside the body and help define the way the body generates power, something you maintain they do the same way.

Like internal ones and external ones. Karate is the flagship of external, and Tai Chi the flagship of internal yet you seem to think you've discovered principles proving Shaolin wrong in your thirty years of training that Shaolin missed in their studies over the last several centuries. Let's not forget Karate was synthesized FROM Shaolin Kung Fu, I suspect they know more about it after 400 plus years than you do after 30.

????? Techniques ARE the manifestation of your power, they are decided by how you derive power: IE how you get from point A to B decides the type of power you will generate, YOU claim Tai Chi and Karate generate power the same way, what better way to disprove that than to examine the techniques?


First of all no one ever denied Karate was partly internal, that wasn't the point, you said the only style of Tai Chi that was different than Karate was the Chens. Second the point used to illustrate (Chen's stomp and the Karate drop step) was the most glaringly obvious even to a beginner. Guess what else? The drop step and Chen stomp show Chen style is closest to Karate not farthest as you tried to claim. The point was to show that Tai Chi and Karate were different and showing the fact that Karate uses a stomp to generate power clearly shows a massive difference in principles. Showing or explaining all the subtle differences is a waste of time when you won't admit the major ones showing you're wrong.



Empty stepping is a MAJOR component of Internal styles, and a very minor component of Karate, empty stepping REQUIRES an empty front leg which is a HUGE difference from a Typical karate punch, with 30 years of Karate surely you understand that?


No it does not, clearly you haven't got the slightest idea about Tai Chi principles and you're using Karate to prop up your poor grasp of the subject, which is what lead you to make the statement that Karate and Tai Chi generate power the same way.

I am aware of it, and I'm also aware you're still trying to apply Karate principles of power generation to Tai Chi to prove your point, I'll grant you this, if you do Tai chi following the body mechanics gained from 30 years of Karate it will look and feel like Karate, that doesn't mean Tai Chi is like Karate it means your Tai Chi is incorrect at its very foundation causing YOUR Tai Chi to look and feel like Karate.



Apparently you don't grasp the fact that one Teacher adding principles from another art changes the art to a hybrid and if its the only Karate style that follows that line of thought it's pretty damn hardheaded to try to use that to define Karate.

So you've have thirty years of Bad Tai Chi experience along side your 30 years of Hybrid Karate, no damn wonder you're making such ridiculous claims.

Mike Brewer

See?

I didn't even need to get involved and this still turned into a big argument!



What I've learned over the last several pages is that almost no one can talk about their martial arts without getting defensive and referring to people who do things differently as ignorant. Even when people start off civilized and really do want to help, it nearly always ends up where it is here. It's a bummer, but I've gotten a lot of great information so from this point forward, the thread is open season. I'll still delete really smartass or off topic posts, but I'm out of my depth now and can't really tell who's on track and who isn't.










And you guys thought I was picking on you....

TTEscrima

Wow, so someone who admits to as many years of bad Tai Chi as he has in HYBRID Karate claiming that the only Tai Chi that generates power differently the Karate is Chen style is your proof we can't get along??!!

WEAK. Try a little research, Call or better yet visit a few Tai Chi schools and tell them it seems all Tai Chi derives it's power like Karate, then watch their stupefied expressions. THEN tell them that the only one different from Karate is Chen style and watch them burst out laughing in relief, they'll be convinced they're on a hidden video show I guarantee you. Anyone with only a few years in ANY internal art hasn't got a clue of how the art generates power and certainly hasn't got enough experience to declare its the same as a external art. Note he admits he was taught Baqua used it's back for power, thats completely hysterical, then he says he gave that up and is a novice in this new style of Tai Chi and you choose to use his posts as a basis for proving we don't know what we're talking about? Ted's been laughed off every forum with experienced CMA people on it for it a reason. I suggest you look at the USN or any other private forum where there are knowledgeable people on the subject posting and you'll see that none of this type BS gets posted without them being laughed right off the forum. The USN is a great resource, people who post on the martial arts get visited by members of the USN who are SF trainers, LEO trainers, the Presidents security detail members etc. People lives are on the line over advice given there and they take that responsibility very seriously, who people are is verified and you are paid a visit to verify you can walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I'm proud to say Boar (My teacher) is VERY well thought of there, has been visited by the big boys, and is a teacher to some of the biggest names there. The top tactical trainer there Mercop trains with Boar and rated him one of the 5 deadliest men in any discipline hes ever met, take a look at the people and the credentials of the men Mercop trains and trains with. You'll find quite a few people who have come out and trained and they all comment Boar and his students have their shit together. On an open forum like this anyone can run their mouth with little or no experience since the mod staff doesn't know the difference. And since identities aren't verified and no one is ever made to back up their BS you wind up with nonsense like this, I assure you no site with Mods who were knowledgeable in the CMA's would pay Ted any attention other than laughter and a quick banning.

Tant01

Like watching the tai chi special olympics, eh?

"Dee dee dee!"

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y20...ee-dee-dee.jpg

__________________
While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties.

T. Shidachi, 1892

TTEscrima

Exactly.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...est28/2101.jpg

Mike Brewer

My point is that everybody always sees the problems from their own points of view. It's never, "We do things differently." It's always, "He's wrong and I'm right" or "He's an idiot and doesn't know anything."

I just find it funny, that's all. I'm not backing anyone since I don't know any better myself.