jubaji

Actually I've done that too (quite a lot, in fact) and Somalis are as capable of abstract reasoning as anyone else.


whiiiifffff!!!!

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TTEscrima

Like the old saying, It's hard to soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by turkeys. IE no discussion ever gets off the ground here because too many people with little or no knowledge of the subject are intent on throwing rocks and derailing the conversation. It's seems that people valued Boars insight yet the heckling from the peanut gallery clearly destroyed many many threads and opportunities to learn. Even now theres clearly a juvenile hostile presence constantly looking to stir up trouble as Mike Brewer pointed out several days ago.

jubaji

There we go again... The mess above just reeks of BoringSpear's patented bitch-and-run technique.


If you haven't the sackage to deal with being questioned and not having your every turd taken as the unquestionable gospel ('cause only those initiated into the cult of the BoringSpear could possibly understand) then you aren't really interested in discussion and should just and go sell flowers at the airport.

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TTEscrima

I don't know where you got those translations but they aren't the ones I posted. Knowing which translations are good and which are flawed is critical to their usage and a good teacher can point those out. It's a fact that oral instruction is required to understand the internal arts as well as physical instruction. Also Boar didn't say it was impossible to teach or convey the concepts, he just said if it was easy he'd be rich, HUGE difference. You need to have a working knowledge of the physical side to the art before the principles make sense. People who can't explain the difference in Yin and Yang can hardly be expected to comprehend an art based on their usage.

Anyone here want to explain what Yin and yang and separating them refers to? What is Yin's function and how is it expressed? How about Yangs function or expression? I've seen quite a few people here who claim to understand the art so lets hear some wisdom from them on this subject. The most basic concept of the internal arts is the function of Yin and yang so what is it?

Cue the witty evasions from the people who can't contribute but like to disrupt.

jubaji

And now for quiz time, where whatever anyone says will simply be met with "oh you just don't get it."

My, what a clever approach to trying to control the context of the discussion...

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TTEscrima

I'm taking you off ignore for this, because I'm sure you have something worthwhile to contribute.

If you know the answers how can I wiggle out, what, I'm going to lie and say you're wrong? Surely you have a rudimentary knowledge of the most important concept of the internal arts as often as you shut down discussions in the CMA forum. It's a simple question that any student of Boars can answer after a month. You claim to have trained under one of the greats for 2 whole years in a park surely you can explain Yin and yangs expression?
There is only one answer (and it's only 4 words) its not as though its open to interpretation nor can I change the teachings to suit my purpose in the discussion, you either know the answers or you don't.

jubaji

Don't be silly, no one but an acolyte of the BoringSpear could possibly know about such things.

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TTEscrima

Thought so, you can't even discuss the subject on the level of a student with a months training. One answer containing 4 words was more than you were capable of. You know the internet posers I mentioned earlier, you're the flagship of the breed. You're nothing but an insecure little class clown punk who needs attention and disrupts with inane BS for your own entertainment. Back on ignore for you, you've been exposed as a poser and I'll waste no more time on you.

jubaji

There you go. That is what you were going to type here eventually no matter what anyone said.

Not too transparent. Tell Boring he needs to teach his puppies some new tricks.

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Mike Brewer

Hey All ~

I know we've let this one run a good course, and I appreciate everyone's cooperation. There's been some awesome input, and I've gotten a lot from what was said and from what was tough to say. I want to head off the discussion before it becomes a bitchfest, though, because I suspect that we're rapidly approaching that point.

I understand that Tai Chi, like any other martial art, has different points of view and different approaches. I also understand that the different exponents aren't above the normal bickering and arguing that everyone else in the world is susceptible to. No problem there - it's human nature.

I understand that the internal arts are probably impossible to fully explain to a dunce like me that hasn't experienced them. I can totally accept that, even if it is the primary reason I don't do them. What can I say? I'm a Westerner, and an American above anything else, and the Chinese mindset doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I can see where external training methods lead, and for every purpose I can imagine myself ever needing, they're more than sufficient. I guess I'm just not willing to take that twenty year gamble that the minor differences in effect will make the major differences I need in functionality. In that sense, I've resigned myself to always being interested and never really understanding.

I get the idea of internal arts, but I just don't see a ton of practical advantages over the external stuff in terms of self defense. For me, fighting isn't about raising welts and rashes or making people's kidneys fail after a week. I know there's more to it than that, and I understand I'm being overly general, but after 27 years of experience with thousands and thousands of martial artists from all over the world, I've gotta say that as impressive as some folks are with internal arts, nothing's ever really taken my breath away and made me want to get re-baptized.

That said, I have seen some truly amazing and impressive stuff that I can't explain. It's frustrating sometimes to hear people say "There's just no way to understand without experiencing it." I have an interest, and I study all kinds of things I'll never be able to experience. I like to think I understand many of them. But going back to that statement about me being an American, simplicity is an elegant thing to me. If it's impossible to understand or that difficult to explain, I reflexively hand out demerits in the functionality column. Simple is better, and for me that often goes for explanations as well as tools. I'm a busy guy, and I don't want to take up a life study just to get a basic understanding. Maybe my mindset is more widespread than any of us think, and maybe it's guys like me trying to make things easy to understand that create the misunderstandings. I don't know.

What I do know is no one will ever understand - or want to - if the tone of condescention and supriority continues. It drives people away from JKD, from karate, and from any other number of martial arts out there, and from what I've seen here, it drives people into the heart of conflict even in the most "harmonious" art.

I'd like it if we could all just suspend the bitching and attitudes here and talk about the arts themselves without resorting to "well you're an idiot." But if we can't, hey - it was a good run. What I'd like to suggest going forward is that comments like:

Really ought to be followed with examples of good translations, and some oral teaching (or typed teaching in this case) to help the curious pursue correct instruction. No one has a right to mock or condemn people for using bad sources or for using flawed ones if they aren't willing to provide credible alternatives. That's just patronizing. Likewise, no one has any room to mock or criticize input without some specifics of their own. You can't just accuse someone of being full of shit without pointing out what parts are incorrect and including some alternative points of view.

This was a civilized thread for a long while. Let's make it so again.

TTEscrima

No one said it was, certainly not anyone from this camp. I noted that Boars strikes raise a rash because its something I've never seen from any other type of strike, not because its the intent of the strike, it's just an unusual side effect. I searched and found Boar himself laughing at delayed effects from strikes as anything other than side effects observed later as opposed to the intent of the strikes.


Show me a post where anyone from our school suggested people give up their respective style and train the internal arts exclusively, Nor can I find any where we say other styles are a waste of time, but there are plenty from others mocking the CMA's as useless and a waste of time.


Again can you show where I said the CMA's were superior to ANYTHING? I may have been condescending to people intentionally attempting to disrupt the threads but that happened after I tried to share information as was mocked or Ted Turner/Truscott brought the same BS here hes been laughed off several forums for. Yet theres tons of hostility and condescension from people unwilling and unable to back their smart assed comments up.

My first post in this thread was met with a neg rep and extremely rude and foul language and left unsigned of course and you wonder why patience might wear thin?

I gave the best translation I'm aware of earlier in the thread, however as a student you should read as many as you find in your own search for understanding, that being said it's generally accepted that Thomas Cleary is one the best sources for translations of CMA information. I'll be glad to continue to discuss or debate and will do my best to help people comprehend anything I can so long as the threads remain based on sharing as opposed to heckling.

jubaji

Good idea. That's why I won't bother anyone who wants prattle on about 'classics' that neither they, nor their teacher, nor their teacher's teacher can so much as read in the original language or its modern incarnation. That's why I don't comment on 'philosophy' threads that are as painful to read as amateur poetry. That's why my very limited comments here (and in similar shit-fests) began with simply pointing out where MY ACTUAL PERSONAL EXPERIENCE does not match the hyperbolic claims of self-appointed masters hell-bent on self-aggrandizement. This is invariably met with clumsy and transparent attempts at hiding behind a cloak of self-professed authority and demanding that their every word be worshipped as the infallible truth that only chosen initiates are privy to, as if enough prissy empty pedantry can make their fantasies about themselves reality.

And that's where the trouble starts...

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jubaji

Where has that happened in this thread? The people who do the most damage to TMAs are those who insist on making them into cartoons.

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Mike Brewer

TTE,
With all due respect, I was aiming those comments at everyone. The welts thing was taken from the comment about Boar, but it was by no means intended to be a slight on your systems or him personally. God knows there are people out there who caricature CMAs to idiotic degrees (a la George Dillman, whom Boar and I have both shared laughs about). I merely used the examples you provided because they were at the front of my mind. I honestly didn't mean to take aim at you or him in so doing. Apologies if I was misunderstood.

As for superiority and whatnot, you haven't said it was superior to other arts, but you've certainly (and often) said that Boar's methods are superior to ttruscott's, for example. By insinuating that he is misinterpreting or spreading false information, you're also insinuating that the way you do business is superior. I find that odd, since you yourself have talked about how difficult it is to explain this kind of thing. The difficulty in explaining - in my mind, at least - allows for the idea that maybe you just aren't understanding what he's trying to say, and the differences are a matter of your inability to understand his explanations as much as anything else. I'm not saying he's right, mind you. As I already said - I don't know shit. I'm just pointing out the all-too-present tendency to dismiss others while supporting our own points of view. And for the record, I'm every bit as guilty of that as anyone else.

No, I don't "wonder" at all. I've had similar lapses in patience and tolerance myself. My comment was about the tendency toward negativity and intolerance. I'm merely pointing out that the tendencies are both present and counter-productive. They're also completely understandable and often justifiable, but they're present and counter-productive nonetheless.

I truly appreciate that. I read the stuff you posted, as well as the article KOTF posted earlier, and both were helpful. I moderated this thread very heavily in the first several pages, and I removed myself from the discussion until specifically invited to jump back in. I'm not trying to criticize you here - on the contrary. I'm thankful you've been willing to share. I also think you're someone who needs very little "protection" from heckling. You seem mature and thick-skinned enough to handle it any way you see fit, whether that means responding to it or letting it roll off your back altogether. The way I see it, the thread may have run its course and many of the ideas being discussed in the last two pages are rehashes of the same old same old. That's why I stopped being so hands on in deleting things. Of course, having gone five or six pages like grown ups, I wanted to believe people could keep it up without my intervention but if we really need me to step back in and delete dissenting opinions at this point, I'd rather just close the thread.

Please don't misread...I'm not criticizing you or singling you out. I'm merely making the observation that it doesn't seem to matter what art we're talking about, nor in what context. Discussions like this almost always come back to the same place, that's all.

TTEscrima

Point taken, a good friend commented awhile back that discussing the martial arts on the internet was like pissing into the wind and unfortunately he was right.