Chinese Boxing defeats Muay Thai!

**Maxximus** · 09-09-2001 03:16 PM

The results are in. Chinese Sanda fighters have defeated muay thai in the Sanda vs muay thai challenge that happened yesterday. Although the 4-3 score is not nearly as one sided as the Chinese fighters' usual victories (which are usually in the area of 4-0, 3-1, etc), it is victory nonetheless. Various Sanda champions faced off with some legit muay thai champions from around the world. The muay thai side i think was overconfident and foolish and probably didn't prepare enough to face off with this style of fighting. The Chinese on the other hand were very smart and have been dissecting muay thai and how to counter it for awhile now. The thai side was even dumb enough to let the Chinese impose a rule of no elbow strikes and no knees to the head! The Chinese also limited themselves by using a rule of no offensive throws, only defensive throws (which doesn't make too much of a huge difference since san shou type throwing is usually most effective when used as a defense/counter to an overzealous attacker rushing in with strikes). Still, by all accounts it was a very interesting event and even with the rules imposed on them and their lack of experience fighting san shou, the muay thai fighters still put up a great fight and showed the Chinese that beating muay thai would not be the cakewalk that beating karate, kickboxing and TKD was.

It is worth noting that this event was actually a prelude to the main sanda/muay thai challenge which is slated to happen later this month. This next time, the thais will have no rules restricting their weapons. Hopefully they will be smart enough to learn from this first defeat and go in more prepared this time around. Much props to the Chinese. They've been working hard and taking it to everyone and have proved themselves formidable athletes. The Sanda guys have done what the classical kung fu guys have not been able to do for decades: bring victory and honor back to the chinese martial tradition. I think it is very likely that we'll see a much better fight from the thais next time, but until that day comes, it is a dark day for muay thai. This is one of the only and one of the biggest publicized defeats of muay thai to another Asian ring fighting sport in history. The Thai people take such great pride in their art (which is why it is their national sport) and I have a feeling that this bitter defeat will send shockwaves through Thailand.

For those of you who don't know, Sanda/San Shou is a new wave Chinese MA/fighting sport. It's also known as Chinese kickboxing. Basically its kickboxing with throws (similar to Draka or Shootboxing). The art itself combines techniques from kung fu, kickboxing and Chinese and freestyle wrestling. It was initally largely based on the kung fu system taught to the Chinese military and police. In their efforts to further promote the sport, the Chinese have done various challenge matches against teams from other fighting sports. They have decimated American kickboxing 4 times in a row (it has been an annual challenge since 1997 or 98), they have beaten a team of American boxers, and they've also mopped up the floor with Japanese full contact karate and Korean TKD teams. They have now just barely pulled victory against muay thai, and there will be yet another muay thai challenge late this month. This time, there will be no rules restricting muay thai technique. In any case, the Chinese fighters have been proving their ability time and time again. This sport may in the future find a link to MMA.

**Underdog** · 09-09-2001 04:57 PM

In the ruas vale tudo summer camp this year showed up a guy from sanda; it's something well worth a checking; it's fighting style was less "overcommited" (i.e. emphasis on power" than muay thai, but very well developed in the combo area. He slided very well from various ranges, almost with grace.

Maybe sanda actually would be a wiser choice for MMA than MT; they train takedowns like crazy...

**Underdog** · 09-09-2001 04:58 PM

Also, Michele "iron mike" verginelli; the current Italian NHB champion (three times Oktagon winner" is from sanda...so maybe that's something in this...

**YeLLa-TiGeR** · 09-09-2001 05:38 PM

I have heard that many of the events in china are mismatches in the favor of the chinese. Who knows though??? its all hersay.

**Oldskulbus** · 09-09-2001 06:03 PM

http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6h.htm

http://tsoi.hypermart.net/pages/Tsoi...lish/Sanda.htm

http://www.ws.com.cn/english.shtml

That last is pretty interesting.

**TracyKarate** · 09-09-2001 07:57 PM

"Muay Thai" is overrated. It's practitioners I'm sure are very tough, but does the average person in need of self-defense on the street have the time or desire to constantly work at toughening their shins and throwing hundreds of kicks and knees a day? It is a "sport", and therefore it's techniques are more "sportive" than "combative".

**Maxximus** · 09-09-2001 09:04 PM

Tracykarate,

Stop fooling yourself. If you had two similar people, one practicing karate three times a week for a couple hours each time and another spending the same time doing muay thai, the guy doing muay thai is going to decimate the karate guy 9 times out of 10. Now be a good girl and go practice your katas.

**TracyKarate** · 09-09-2001 09:28 PM

Maxximus, instead of replying to me with facts, I see you have chosen to do so with speculation an insults. I won't return the favor but i will say that it is a shame that you are so misinformed about karate. My question had to do with the average victim on the street vs an attacker, not two martial artists.
Thanks for replying and keep training.

**Rob B** · 09-09-2001 10:26 PM

I'd give credit to Kyokoshinkai, they train hard and realistically; they also have a pretty good record against Muay Thai, with some of their fighters fighting in K1. Tracy Karate (i'm assuming this is Kenpo) on the other hand, I haven't heard too much from. I've only seen bits and pieces from it from NHB and I didn't really like what I saw. I really can't make an informed statement, but if TracyKarate wishes to explain more about it I'd listen.

**Bau** · 09-10-2001 02:17 AM

I agree with yella.... They probably brought in shitty MT guys to fight...

Back home in Hong Kong I was able to watch a sanda championship...
Most of these fighters were very one dimensional....
I know that they train in both striking and throws but I hardly ever saw a guy with a good balance of the two...
none of them had good boxing skills...take down techniques were sloppy ...kicks were pretty good though...

The sport is a good idea and the quality of fighters will probably get better as time goes on..

TracyKarate....I have to ask you ...why would a muai thai fighter who knows how to punch and kick effectively, fight in the clinch, use knees and elbows be worse off than a karate guy if he's attacked in the street?

What advantage does the karate guy have?

**Oldskulbus** · 09-10-2001 03:23 AM

I think TracyKarate has had some good posts here about various ideas behind martial arts but I would have to raise an eyebrow at the earlier statement. I think that you can determine about 25% of a fighters potential by his style, another 25% can be determined by motivation, and the other 50% is the teacher and training methods. Muay Thai has been show to be an effective martial art because of its devastating knees, elbows, and clinches. The training is also rather realistic and intense.
While I would agree that they could probably better spend their time doing other things instead of shin hardening I don't think most muay Thai artists spend all of their time hardening their shins.
I am kind of dancing around my point but its this: If I had to pick between fighting a muay Thai guy who has trained for a couple of years and a Karate guy who has trained a couple of years. I would know I could take the karate guy because most Karate guys don't do full contact and don't know what it feels like to get hit. Muay Thai is may be a sport but it makes the praticers hardened and quick while Karate almost always instills a false sense of confidence.

**TracyKarate** · 09-10-2001 03:27 AM

Bau, you are not reading my post correctly. My point is only that average people in need of self defense,the people who martial arts are truly intended for (not the high school student who trains 4 hours every day because he is supported by his parents and doesn't need to work) do not have the time and/or desire to put in the tremendous amount of effort needed to become a good boxer/kickboxer. They are better suited in learning more simplified, devastating techniques found in less "sportive" and more "combative" arts.
Competition and self defense are not one in the same.
I would no sooner take up football to learn how to throw a grenade than I would take up a combative sport to learn how to protect myself or my family.

**Maxximus** · 09-10-2001 03:47 AM

Oh, so it somehow takes less effort to become a proficient karate fighter than it does to be a good thai boxer? Yeah that makes a whole lot of sense

**TracyKarate** · 09-10-2001 10:57 AM

If you would open your mind for a moment it would make sense because once again you are fixated on a "competitive/sport fighter". Your lack of knowledge(dislike) of other arts is also clouding your ability to understand what i am saying.
Notice I never mentioned any type of Karate. There ARE other arts out there beyond jujutsu and boxing/kickboxing.
Once again, my point is merely that for a person who does not have the time to train that a competitive/sport fighter does is better suited learning techniques that require less prcatice, effort, strength etc to ward off a bigger stronger attacker, not someone in their own wieght class who will attack in a predictable manner(he will either punch or kick) and in full view when both fighters are ready.
Once again, competition and self defense are not one in the same.

**Szczepankiewicz** · 09-10-2001 11:51 AM

How did we get from Sanda competitions to "the best method of self defense"?

I do believe that Maxximus original post was about the continuing competition between the Sanda teams and various other teams around the world.

Bau
-- I disagree. the Chinese would NEVER bring in poor fighters to make their teams look better! Never!

Tracey
-- TraceyKarate is correct Sir! Competition and self defense are not the same. But since we can't go around defending ourselves at will, we have developed competition to give people an arena to try different things out.

I agree with you in keeping things simple and not having to practice for self defense, but what THE HELL does that have to do with Sanda competition????

Peace!

SZ

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