ryanhall

Perhaps we are coming at this from different sides? I am thinking of this from a self-defense standpoint. Where are you looking at it from?

This I can understand. The idea is to avoid grappling in general, especially with a superior opponent (you won't know he's superior unless you're match fighting). This is easier said than done, however. If someone wants you on the ground, they stand a very good chance of taking you there. When I said "anti-grappling," I was referring to the Wing Chun stuff that bears the same name.

If you train your trapping all out, then more power to you. If it works (really works, and you're not just telling yourself that it does), then great. Keep it up.

Finally:
You missed the most important and pertinent points of mine. Namely #2, #4, and #5. Under adrenal stress, you won't be able to manage anything as fancy as trapping. It's not necessary, as almost nobody will hold the centerline. People tend to flail a bit when you start doing tricky hand movements (happens to me when I trap in sparring), and this interferes with the trap in a big way. Simpler traps are easier to pull off, and they don't require any large amount of skill or a particularly level head.

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krys

"I am thinking of this from a self-defense standpoint. Where are you looking at it from?"

So am I...

"If someone wants you on the ground, they stand a very good chance of taking you there."



I know that and do not underestimate grapplers; even could often take my bjj instructor to the floor (what hapened afterwards is another story...)
The major reason is that many peoples tend to wrestle when their opponent starts to grapple
instead of hitting and moving away or trying to disengage (the last is easier said than done).
That is where the footwork comes into play....
Another point is that many grapplers are competition oriented and do not expect unalowed hits-squeezes-.... personally got a very nasty experience a few weeks ago after moving into the full mount on a fellow Silat guy while I was on bjj thinking mode......
Grapplers are human beings, a good blow will hurt them as good everybody else.....

"When I said "anti-grappling," I was referring to the Wing Chun stuff that bears the same name.
"

Never heard of anti grapling stuff in Wing Chun, what I mean is that the art has some good movements you can use to defend against a grappler.

2) Your opponent breaks the structure by not accepting the feed properly.

This is combat, you can never be sure everything will work properly, same thing with the grapling locks-chokes, what percentage of the grapling stuff you learn in the gym will really work in a fight while you are taking blows?
What if your oponent is much heavyer-stronger than you? will everything work smoothly? (I am not conviced that in wrestling strength doesn't matter)
If trapping doesn't work, try something else..... one should not be fixed on a single technique....


4) It is a very fine motor skill.

I agree it may take lot of time to get the more complex mecanism, so is sensitivity training in bjj.....

5) There's no point in doing it, as almost nobody bothers occupying the centerline properly.
As I said this is a question of opportunity, moove, feint, make him occupy it.....

I am not too advanced in WC, mostly use traps of the art of silat that I practice for a quite longuer time, they work well in combat and are easy to apply, but I am convinced WC has also something interesting to bring to my practice...

punkmonk

I have been training and teaching Wing Chun for 3 years.
And I speak from experience and knowledge. I have fought and defeated women in competition in the black belt level. (although I am not level 1 or black sash yet.)
I have had grapplers (men) try to submit, mount and punch me in ground fighting. They failed.
I train with men twice my size and weight, and WC works. I have trained several other arts from Ju-Jitsu to kali, to karate. and WC is an art that is practical, simple, direct, and devastating. These guys that go to UFC and claim to be WC/WT, i've never heard of or their teachers, and neither has my Sifu. you have to look at the source.
Sifu Emin Boztepe has created the WT/WC anti-grappling only 6-8 years ago, and the techniques are still evolving. I have personally used these techniques against BJJ stylists, and grapplers, and they work plain and simple.
I'm a female 5'6" 115lbs in stature, and if these techniques work for me against men 6 foot 250 lbs, then they work.
What I have seen is WC/WT is mainly male dominated. This was an art invented by a woman to defeat stronger attackers. These me tend to rely on their strength making the techniques difficult, overly complicated, and ineffective.
Chi Sau and Wing Chun Dummy drills are what they are,.. drills. They teach sensitivity, and reaction against a stronger opponent. They are not for street fighting. You use the skill and techniques learned here in a confrontation, to use the opponents momentum and strength against them.
We have had students that have sparred in competition against brown and black belts win after 6-8 months of training. Now, AOK tournaments are a different story. Our students hit their opponent 20-30 times running them out of the ring each time, but judges deem the fight won by TKD because they don't know what Chain Punching is.
They view it as wild punching, even though the students strike the opponent 15-20 times in the same spot. The simple lack of laymens, and other martial artists knowlege about WC/WT is what defeats WC before it gets in the ring. People believe they know what WC is, and they close their mind to it.
But, on the street, it's WC that wins.
If you use BJJ on the street you will get hurt or killed. While your spending so much time on one attacker, his buddies have stomped your head. WC is designed to end the conflict within 6-10 seconds. much longer than that in the street, you are in trouble. This is not tournament style fighting, it is not a sport. To put on the pads and have competition rules (no kicking the knee, groin, gouging the eyes, chopping the throat, whatever) just takes away from an art designed to keep you alive.
If you want to prove something, and compete in ufc, whatever. take another art.
If you want to survive an attacker trying to kill you. take Wing Chun.

punkmonk

There are videos on WT ground fighting on Yahoo video.
Look for Systema Wing Tsun and you should find more indepth WT/WC anti grappling.
Now, understand that these techniques must be felt, practiced, and tested. You'll learn nothing by watching the videos but mechanics. Sensitivity is the key.

punkmonk

What alot of people misconstrue about WC trapping is that it is not your end all goal. When you train the sensitivity drills and gain skill, when you are fighting if the trap is there you take it, if the joint lock is there you take it. If it isn't you strike, always flowing with your opponents energy.
If you try to jump up and grab a boxer per say(or trap), you'll find your face running into a fist, or the arm just not there.
Everyone seems to miss the main point of WC and that is utilization of forward force.
Move into your opponent and take away their space (to punch, kick, whatever) unbalance them with your body and your stance. Then the trapping, take downs, locks, etc. will come.
you can't expect to do it, plan for it, you have to learn to take to opportunity when it is there. and aggressive, strong opponent will give his arms to you, you don't have to catch them.

Hardball

You will only get biased opinions in the mma/brazillian forum, try posting in the chinese forumn for more positive responses.

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punkmonk

If you are looking for practical street defense for your life. Take Wing Chun.
If you want to compete in tourny, and ufc, take something elese.
Wing Chun is not nice and fluffy. It is powerful, fierce, unreleting, and unmerciful.
the differences of Wing Tsun/chun are nominal. just different spelling.
The Russians spell it Vsun or something like that.
Just make sure when you try a WC teacher ask about "forward force". If they don't know what it is, don't take.
Very important.

jubaji

.................................

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jubaji

Ah, another member of the "it" works school of nonsense.

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stabbychick

Thank you, Hardball... sound advice.

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Thai Bri

Systema Wing Chun?

How many alphabets does that have convinced?

Welcome back my friend! Haw haw haw!

BoarSpear

Systema WC!! ..... ........

I have seen the systema guys doing push hands and chi sau, but that doesnt make them Systema techniques...or useful for fighting.

SamuraiGuy

I just think this whole... 250 pound man cant beat up a 115 pound women because she knows Wing Chun. And hes a grappler.

A 250 pound man can beat up 99% of the women in the world, (in an unarmed fight of course as the weapon is the great equalizer) whether they have zero training, or they have alot of training.

This is complete and utter bullshit this claim.. what a fucking joke.. dumbest thing I've ever read on the internet.

Edit; let me make a disclaimer... I'm not bashing Wing Chun, just this persons claim. I dont care if your doing Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Kung Fu, Karate, GJJ, BJJ, Judo, JJJ, Muay Thai, FMA's, Silat. ANYTHING unarmed, the women is going down.

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Adept

Going down, yes, but beaten up? Raped? Sorry, Mr SamuraiGuy, but IMO, I must disagree.

Personally, I think if the 115 lb. woman is well versed in GJJ or Judo, like a black belt, she can hold her own vs an unarmed bigger man. Like sure, maybe the 200 lb. gorilla will tackle her down and get the top position, but maybe she can pull out an armlock or choke hold within the guard position? I don't know, that's just what I think.

SamuraiGuy

Yeah you'll notice I said 99% of the time, I left that little bit open for the Kyra Gracies of the world, and even then, when the guy can punch her and shit, I say its about 50/50.

He doesnt necessarily have to grapple with her, just throw big ass haymakers and she'll prolly go down.

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"a few User CP's that are pretty significant ones(like a BoarSpear or SamuraiGuy one). " - GracieHunter

I choke people, I dont poke people. -- Me

Were you born to resist or be abused? I swear I'll never give in, I refuse. -- Foo Fighters

I want a girl that spends more time on her back than Royce Gracie.

I'll knee you in the face like your name was Josh Koschek -- Me