Practicality of Chinese MAs - Page 3

bartjam · 10-08-2003, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz

Did anyone ever define what this actually means?

Interesting question... it depends upon WHERE you live and WHEN. 17th Century China is not 21st Century New York City. I live in Italy, and here you can find different *typical* ways of street-fighting. In the South, for example, you normally have fights ending up in armed (knife, sticks, guns) fighting, involving more persons after one of the opponents has been beaten.
In northern regions you still have more "classical" bare hands fighting originated by verbal assault, car/traffic troubles, competition for women...

(typical "bar/night-club fights), and of course soccer hooligans (dangerous, armed and in gangs

)

I've been living in the UK, where you have sometimes fights between very aggressive, drunk men, involving punches, headbutts, kicks to the groin. Never seen any "grappling" there, for example...
So, what about where you live? What's the "best" MA style for YOUR streets?
Some Chinese MA are very good indeed, in situations I've been through (Wing Chun and its derivatives WT, JeetKuneDo etc.). Also, Kali/Escrima works fine. But it's still difficult to find "rules" that always work...

**Thai Bri** · 10-08-2003, 02:03 PM

What amazes me is that people still quote Cheung as someone with "respect". He doesn't have mine.

I bet that upsets him!

Szczepankiewicz · 10-08-2003, 02:05 PM

'Tis a short list of those whom have your respect.

A short list indeed.

**Thai Bri** · 10-08-2003, 02:31 PM

Actually I rather think it is.

redazncommieDXP · 10-11-2003, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nobody
Hi, Arsen.

There are a few points to consider when asking your question.

China has had a very violent history (please note that when talking about martial arts I am referring to China's history up to but not including the 20th century). Consequently througout that history there have been a great number of people who lived a long life only because of their skill in combat. In principle, Chinese martial arts are based on the combat experiences of those people.

One could argue that Chinese martial arts are bound in ritual and formality and even in olden times were not a simple and practical way of fighting. However, that argument might hold true for an isolated culture (for example, an island culture), but China has been exposed to other cultures all through its history. This includes fighting peoples who did not play by Chinese rules. Even when the Chinese were defeated, the invaders became Chinese and influenced the fighting arts.

In the past, either your art worked or you did not survive.

Some people today say that Chinese martial arts may have been effective in the past, but are no good for modern "street" situations? What modern situations? Is mugging a modern invention? Is a drunk trying to smash a bottle over your head a modern invention? Is rape a modern phenomenon? Remember that the Shaolin monks first learned to fight so that they could deal with muggers.

Chinese martial arts in China suffered under the communist regime. Martial arts were stamped out. It's interesting to note that during the Korean War, western soldiers found that they often defeated (communist) Chinese soldiers in hand-to-hand combat. The communist regime no longer had any hand-to-hand skills to teach their infantry.

When the communists woke up to the huge damage they had caused to their culture, they replaced traditional combat arts with what is known today as Wushu . This term literally means "martial art" but is a sport, not intended primarily for combat.

Outside of China, traditional systems have suffered because the hostile environment that spawned them no longer exists, thus the skill diminishes with each generation. This deterioration is accelerated by the commercialisation of schools.

Many people look at Chinese forms and think that because they (sometimes) look so pretty that they could not possibly be effective. Unfortunately, most people (at least in the West) who can peform a form, do not know how to make it work. Thus the impression given is that the system is not effective, when in reality it is the average practitioner that is not effective.

Of course, the system is no better than its best practitioner and some systems which were lethally effective in the past may not be effective now.

Are Chinese martial arts esoteric? Well, many people consider qigong exercises to be esoteric. Whatever your opinions about "qi", I don't think that anyone could argue that learning to breath more deeply so that you get more oxygen to your blood and tissues can be a bad thing. Nor can learning breath control so that you breathe more easily during stressful situations, such as a mugging, be a bad thing.

In 2001 I participated in a multi-discipline seminar as an instructor. I was the only instructor of a Chinese art. Prior to the event, a student of the organiser wrote a newspaper article in which he said the event would also feature the "esoteric" Chinese arts. After teaching a series of very short, simple and brutal techniques during the seminar, I asked him if it was "esoteric" enough for him and he apologised, which I thought was very courteous of him.

With regard to the movies, nothing in the movies is real. Do you think "Kelly Heroes" is an accurate representation of World War II combat? Chinese martial arts in the movies is "fantasy" fighting. It is entertainment. Do not suppose that Chinese martial arts are effective just because you like Jackie Chan. In fact, JC was once asked if he was a good fighter. He replied that he was a good "movie fighter".

Because it's relatively easy to look good doing Chinese martial arts, but quite hard to actually demonstrate the real skill, many so-called practitioners have let those arts down. However, to say that just because some (or even most) modern-day practitioners are not effective therefore no Chinese martial arts are effective is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

All the best.

what a well-written post. props go to you. i think i should point out, though, that the standing communist regime does promote martial arts within certain limitations. most commercial schools are only allowed, or only capable, of teaching chinese kung fu up to a certain degree, and in order to learn the "full" art, you must actually receive a license from the ccp- a notoriously difficult process. many members of the chinese secret police, as well as members of the military elite and the jun wei shou jian are proficient in these "forbidden" forms.

**HuSanYan** · 10-14-2003, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bartjam

I live in Italy, and here you can find different *typical* ways of street-fighting. In the South, for example, you normally have fights ending up in armed (knife, sticks, guns) fighting, involving more persons after one of the opponents has been beaten.
In northern regions you still have more "classical" bare hands fighting originated by verbal assault, car/traffic troubles, competition for women... (typical "bar/night-club fights), and of course soccer hooligans (dangerous, armed and in gangs )

I've been living in the UK, where you have sometimes fights between very aggressive, drunk men, involving punches, headbutts, kicks to the groin. Never seen any "grappling" there, for example...
So, what about where you live? What's the "best" MA style for YOUR streets?

bartjam, uhhummm good point m8, well let me speak per pro London a bit, well let me see, you have the Edgeware Rd where Wing Chun is in fact the only way they fight there, as you get to Notting Hill, u grapple, further south of Hyde Park there are a lot of rough guys who do a lot of high spinning kicks, if you go east you get BJJ fa8gots who roll around in the bushes a lot with each other, as far as North London goes its all super stealth high class Ninjutsu (black masks and all), and for the Shaolin stuff you go to Brixton.
can't really comment on the rest of the UK but i know if you go to wimp towns like Manchester for example, its all Aikido....take good care of yourself and let us know whats best for your particular streets

grubbogoppoly · 10-14-2003, 04:43 PM

Lol. .Very amusing husan

**HuSanYan** · 10-14-2003, 05:56 PM

that's a pleasure good sir

Tom Yum · 10-14-2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redazncommieDXP

jun wei shou jian are proficient in these "forbidden" forms.

or "wei jun jian shou"

jk

You've brought up a good point. What we see here is probably just the tip of the iceberg in Chinese martial arts.

Tom Yum · 10-16-2003, 08:50 PM

"wei jun jian shou"...

hmmm..confirms what I thought.

Blacktea · 10-24-2003, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Cheung was in the British MA press 20 years ago, telling everyone how he would accept any challenge and was unbeatable.

A young and unknown Emin Boztepe bitch slapped him.

because he did not do his homework and did not practise chi-sao...

Mo Ling · 10-26-2003, 09:13 PM

someone said regarding China:
"most commercial schools are only allowed, or only capable, of teaching chinese kung fu up to a certain degree, and in order to learn the "full" art, you must actually receive a license from the ccp- a notoriously difficult process. many members of the chinese secret police, as well as members of the military elite and the jun wei shou jian are proficient in these "forbidden" forms."

I am in China now and I have to say, I am not sure what you mean by commercial schools. Is commercial a school that makes money? Most teachers make money. Anyway you dont need any special license to teach a full art. There are many teachers here who actually teach complete ass kicking methods. The government may have formalities that you are reading about or looking at from the outside, I dont know, but that idea in no way defines the Chinese situation.

www.taijigongfu.com

Tom Yum · 10-27-2003, 07:42 PM

Mo ling, I honestly believe that Chinese cooks would make the best gongfu fighters.

Those guys lift all day; 20 lb woks, 30 lb rice bags and all the stirring. Have you noticed how HUGE their forearms are, yet how dexterious they are? Plus all the burn calouses on the forearms and hands.

yentao · 10-28-2003, 01:08 AM

A lot of kung fu are taught now a days with secrecy. Before during Sino-Japanese, World War 2, and the Cultural Revolution martial arts are taught in combat applications and a lot of styles are taught in the right ways in these times.

Now since it is been hard to trust someone with "that sort" of knowledge, because of it now it was taught improperly by some masters. That could be a reason why there such art called flowery and useless.

They said, "You never know when your student will stab you from the back". It is sad since many art has lost because of lack of trust. Learning Kung Fu is hard without devotion and respect from your master.

yentao · 10-28-2003, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by krys

They kept their martial arts alive as part of their traditions and for self defence, some of their styles are no longuer practiced in China; these martial arts were sharpened due to fights with locals using different combat methods, useless flowery or purely health improving techniques were discarded
The level of traditional CMA in South east Asia is often very high (see Sao Lim athletic association in Malaysia, Ngo Cho Kun athletic association in the Philippines)....

All the best.

Yes, but Ngo Cho Kun still inlcudes health improving and strengthening techniques including combat.

10-14-2003, 04:43 PM	#37 (permalink)
grubbogoppoly Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 283	Lol. .Very amusing husan __________________ I apologize for anything I am, will, or have said that will or may offend you. I take no responsibility for my words/actions and will not be punished.

10-14-2003, 05:56 PM	#38 (permalink)
HuSanYan Premiere Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 641	grubbo that's a pleasure good sir

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10-08-2003, 02:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,415	What amazes me is that people still quote Cheung as someone with "respect". He doesn't have mine. I bet that upsets him!

10-08-2003, 02:05 PM	#33 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	'Tis a short list of those whom have your respect. A short list indeed.

10-08-2003, 02:31 PM	#34 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,415	Actually I rather think it is.

10-16-2003, 08:50 PM	#40 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,174	"wei jun jian shou"... hmmm..confirms what I thought.

10-26-2003, 09:13 PM	#42 (permalink)
Mo Ling Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: BEIJING/SF Posts: 6	someone said regarding China: "most commercial schools are only allowed, or only capable, of teaching chinese kung fu up to a certain degree, and in order to learn the "full" art, you must actually receive a license from the ccp- a notoriously difficult process. many members of the chinese secret police, as well as members of the military elite and the jun wei shou jian are proficient in these "forbidden" forms." I am in China now and I have to say, I am not sure what you mean by commercial schools. Is commercial a school that makes money? Most teachers make money. Anyway you dont need any special license to teach a full art. There are many teachers here who actually teach complete ass kicking methods. The government may have formalities that you are reading about or looking at from the outside, I dont know, but that idea in no way defines the Chinese situation. www.taijigongfu.com

10-27-2003, 07:42 PM	#43 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,174	Mo ling, I honestly believe that Chinese cooks would make the best gongfu fighters. Those guys lift all day; 20 lb woks, 30 lb rice bags and all the stirring. Have you noticed how HUGE their forearms are, yet how dexterious they are? Plus all the burn calouses on the forearms and hands.

10-28-2003, 01:08 AM	#44 (permalink)
yentao Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 309	A lot of kung fu are taught now a days with secrecy. Before during Sino-Japanese, World War 2, and the Cultural Revolution martial arts are taught in combat applications and a lot of styles are taught in the right ways in these times. Now since it is been hard to trust someone with "that sort" of knowledge, because of it now it was taught improperly by some masters. That could be a reason why there such art called flowery and useless. They said, "You never know when your student will stab you from the back". It is sad since many art has lost because of lack of trust. Learning Kung Fu is hard without devotion and respect from your master.

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