UNARMED VS KNIFE

knuckledragger · 09-29-2000, 05:57 PM

Hello! The old forums used to be a great reference for ideas/strategies/tactics about fighting ,I guess that those posts are gone forever ,and regrettably the ones from Marc Denny on multiple opponents and one from Burt Richardson on unarmed vs the knife.So whats everyones opinion on the best way to handle this situation ( other than run, pull my Glock .45/Mossberg shotgun, etc.)either from your training or stuff that you have (unfortunately) had to use.I have never been a victim of a knife attack.In training I have found that grabbing the knife hand with both hand,keeping it away from me and hitting, tripping ,and trying to get him to the ground have worked fairly well(training concepts taken from BR and Peyton Quinn)I have found that sudden surprise (simulated )attacks are very difficult without being "cut" to shreds or suffering terrrible possibly fatal and limb incapacitating injury.we also have trained with attacks from behind...this is bad news Hint: dont get attacked from behind ...Well Im anxious to hear what everyone has to say .

Chop Wisby · 10-29-2000, 01:04 AM

sounds like you are on the right track, knuckledragger;
one of my old instructors was a LEO with a trad. J-J & FMA background;

he taught us unarmed defenses vs. knife that consisted of block/grab & hold on/hithardasmuchasneeded; this is also the kind of thing he taught his corrections guys;

2 cents from

Chop Wisby

quietanswer · 10-31-2000, 03:48 PM

something we've been doing in our stick/knife fighting:

we had these old focus mitts..they were made from century, and they were really crappy.. they had big straps (think thai pads, but made from webbing) and flopped around when they were struck. we retired them for some low-cost, yet quality boxing style mitts..

however, we started using those other mitts like a buckler-shield for our sparring.. especially with knives. my idea behind this is because the general solution to a man with a knife attacking you is to grab a pillow, or roll a jacket on your arm, or pick up a toaster/lamp/toolbox.. and use it like a buckler shield for defense and bashing. also, my instructor told me that the filipinos had lots of shield techniques (and spoke about bashing, tackling etc with it..really fascinating) but i forget the tagalog for it..

it's worked really well. we train without it more than with it, so as not to develop a reaction of throwing our active hand into the power arc of an attack..

it's interesting how quickly your active hand adapts to this.. it's as if you were already doing something more complicated with it previously, but it was a related task.. so when you use the buckler, it's a piece of cake.

Chop Wisby · 11-01-2000, 01:41 AM

interesting. any other ideas?

(other than running.)

Chop Wisby · 11-03-2000, 01:21 AM

anybody?

spiderchoke · 11-03-2000, 06:23 AM

I feel very comfortable with dagger tapping. I don't really know where you would go to find out more. Maybe someone will chime in or you could post on it. the tecnique is very fast-as to reduce the chance of angle changes or thrust to slash manuevers.

Put simply you use your hands to quickly tap on the attacking arm. Passing the knife all the while with your multiple taps. Ending with the thumb and forefinger straddling the arm slightly above the elbow, from the outside of the center-line. This usually forces the attacker to spin completely around to attack again.

one option.
I like the shield (buckler) training too. When I do get a hold of the attacking arm, I do like to secure it with both hands like you said.

Chad W. Getz · 11-03-2000, 07:59 AM

I agree with everyone here, and want to post a little more in depth, but got caught up replying to another message here that was kind of lengthy.

Dwayne, I like to use my shoe in the same manner you use the mitts. You guys should try actually using the shoe instead of the mitts. Of course, I may not fully understand exactly what you guys are doing. Can you explain a little more? Another thing that happens w empty hand vs knife, if you pull your shoe off and someone has a knife approaching you, you may be able to use it as a psychological advantage and change his mind set to a "duelling" mindset, which most muggers don't want a duel, but weak easy prey. Key words being MAY, but don't count on it.

quietanswer · 11-03-2000, 02:59 PM

chad: yeah, i remember your shoe answer, and it is very similar to what I mean. maybe i will even practice removing my shoe in the fight..

spider: i keep hearing about tapping, but don't think i was trained in it...hm. btw, ever heard they might be giants song "spider"..it's a short bit on their appollo 18 cd..

tapping....is it within hubud or palisut? i do these drills..

-dwayne

Chop Wisby · 11-04-2000, 02:01 AM

thanks, guys.

for some thoughtful comments on this subject, go to http://www.bladeforums.com ; check out the FMA forum there, specifically Protector's comments on the thread "brennan & miller balisong videos?"

Protector is apparently a LEO w/ long experience in FMAs; his comments on knife defense seem worth checking out.

Chop Wisby

gungfuhero · 11-04-2000, 03:31 AM

If I recall correctly, palisut is what the attacker does (thrust to slash) and tapping is what the defender does. I guess you could describe it as doing a tan sao across your body blocking the thrust then passing the slash with a hard downward energy(no further then 6 o'clock to prevent them from stabbing you on the other side).

Chad W. Getz · 11-05-2000, 07:46 PM

Dwayne, e-mail me.

sikal · 11-06-2000, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gungfuhero
If I recall correctly, palisut is what the attacker does (thrust to slash) and tapping is what the defender does. I guess you could describe it as doing a tan sao across your body blocking the thrust then passing the slash with a hard downward energy(no further then 6 o'clock to prevent them from stabbing you on the other side).

"Palisut" actually means "scoop." I've heard "tapping" used to describe several types of energy.

Mike

gungfuhero · 11-06-2000, 11:42 PM

Thanks for the correction. It's more than welcomed.

Chop Wisby · 11-10-2000, 12:52 AM

i don't know if anybody checked out the thread i suggested, but to paraphrase, "Protector" seems to be a leo with an fma background;

he favors the hold and hithithitetc. approach to disarms, based on his police experience, which he explains in more detail on the thread i mentioned earlier.

personally, i would not be comfortable with any unarmed finish that was attempted while the opponent's knife has any mobility left.

sikal · 11-10-2000, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chop Wisby

i don't know if anybody checked out the thread i suggested, but to paraphrase, "Protector" seems to be a leo with an fma background;

he favors the hold and hithithitetc. approach to disarms, based on his police experience, which he explains in more detail on the thread i mentioned earlier.

personally, i would not be comfortable with any unarmed finish that was attempted while the opponent's knife has any mobility left.

I agree completely ... with both sides. We train disarms ... but we try to instill in people that the disarm is "incidental if not accidental."

Deal with the weapon, fight (and hopefully finish) the man ... period. If, doing this, you achieve a disarm, GREAT! If not, then make sure to finish the man.

Now, the question arises, this being the case, why train disarms at all? Well, if you don't train them, then when they are available, you will miss them and still be fighting an armed assailant. If you disarm him then at least you will no longer be fighting an armed assailant ... even if the fight continues after the disarm.

However, "hold & hithithithit" is a good path to take which might give you an option to disarm :-) And, if the fight finishes before you find a disarm then GREAT! (This assumes that the fight finished with you having the lower hospital bill :-)

Regards, Mike

10-29-2000, 01:04 AM	#2 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	sounds right sounds like you are on the right track, knuckledragger; one of my old instructors was a LEO with a trad. J-J & FMA background; he taught us unarmed defenses vs. knife that consisted of block/grab & hold on/hithardasmuchasneeded; this is also the kind of thing he taught his corrections guys; 2 cents from Chop Wisby

10-31-2000, 03:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	something we've been doing in our stick/knife fighting: we had these old focus mitts..they were made from century, and they were really crappy.. they had big straps (think thai pads, but made from webbing) and flopped around when they were struck. we retired them for some low-cost, yet quality boxing style mitts.. however, we started using those other mitts like a buckler-shield for our sparring.. especially with knives. my idea behind this is because the general solution to a man with a knife attacking you is to grab a pillow, or roll a jacket on your arm, or pick up a toaster/lamp/toolbox.. and use it like a buckler shield for defense and bashing. also, my instructor told me that the filipinos had lots of shield techniques (and spoke about bashing, tackling etc with it..really fascinating) but i forget the tagalog for it.. it's worked really well. we train without it more than with it, so as not to develop a reaction of throwing our active hand into the power arc of an attack.. it's interesting how quickly your active hand adapts to this.. it's as if you were already doing something more complicated with it previously, but it was a related task.. so when you use the buckler, it's a piece of cake. __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

11-01-2000, 01:41 AM	#4 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	ideas? interesting. any other ideas? (other than running.)

11-03-2000, 01:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	opinions? anybody?

11-03-2000, 06:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
spiderchoke Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 134	I feel very comfortable with dagger tapping. I don't really know where you would go to find out more. Maybe someone will chime in or you could post on it. the tecnique is very fast-as to reduce the chance of angle changes or thrust to slash manuevers. Put simply you use your hands to quickly tap on the attacking arm. Passing the knife all the while with your multiple taps. Ending with the thumb and forefinger straddling the arm slightly above the elbow, from the outside of the center-line. This usually forces the attacker to spin completely around to attack again. one option. I like the shield (buckler) training too. When I do get a hold of the attacking arm, I do like to secure it with both hands like you said. __________________ "Every Man I meet is in some way my superior.....In that, I learn of him." .......Ralph Waldo Emerson

09-29-2000, 05:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
knuckledragger Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 42	Hello! The old forums used to be a great reference for ideas/strategies/tactics about fighting ,I guess that those posts are gone forever ,and regrettably the ones from Marc Denny on multiple opponents and one from Burt Richardson on unarmed vs the knife.So whats everyones opinion on the best way to handle this situation ( other than run, pull my Glock .45/Mossberg shotgun, etc.)either from your training or stuff that you have (unfortunately) had to use.I have never been a victim of a knife attack.In training I have found that grabbing the knife hand with both hand,keeping it away from me and hitting, tripping ,and trying to get him to the ground have worked fairly well(training concepts taken from BR and Peyton Quinn)I have found that sudden surprise (simulated )attacks are very difficult without being "cut" to shreds or suffering terrrible possibly fatal and limb incapacitating injury.we also have trained with attacks from behind...this is bad news Hint: dont get attacked from behind ...Well Im anxious to hear what everyone has to say .

11-03-2000, 07:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509	I agree with everyone here, and want to post a little more in depth, but got caught up replying to another message here that was kind of lengthy. Dwayne, I like to use my shoe in the same manner you use the mitts. You guys should try actually using the shoe instead of the mitts. Of course, I may not fully understand exactly what you guys are doing. Can you explain a little more? Another thing that happens w empty hand vs knife, if you pull your shoe off and someone has a knife approaching you, you may be able to use it as a psychological advantage and change his mind set to a "duelling" mindset, which most muggers don't want a duel, but weak easy prey. Key words being MAY, but don't count on it. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

11-03-2000, 02:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	chad: yeah, i remember your shoe answer, and it is very similar to what I mean. maybe i will even practice removing my shoe in the fight.. spider: i keep hearing about tapping, but don't think i was trained in it...hm. btw, ever heard they might be giants song "spider"..it's a short bit on their appollo 18 cd.. tapping....is it within hubud or palisut? i do these drills.. -dwayne __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

11-04-2000, 02:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	unarmed thanks, guys. for some thoughtful comments on this subject, go to http://www.bladeforums.com ; check out the FMA forum there, specifically Protector's comments on the thread "brennan & miller balisong videos?" Protector is apparently a LEO w/ long experience in FMAs; his comments on knife defense seem worth checking out. Chop Wisby

11-04-2000, 03:31 AM	#10 (permalink)
gungfuhero Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Bloomington IN Posts: 317	If I recall correctly, palisut is what the attacker does (thrust to slash) and tapping is what the defender does. I guess you could describe it as doing a tan sao across your body blocking the thrust then passing the slash with a hard downward energy(no further then 6 o'clock to prevent them from stabbing you on the other side).

11-05-2000, 07:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509	Dwayne, e-mail me. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

11-06-2000, 11:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
gungfuhero Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Bloomington IN Posts: 317	Thanks for the correction. It's more than welcomed.

11-10-2000, 12:52 AM	#14 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	"Protector" i don't know if anybody checked out the thread i suggested, but to paraphrase, "Protector" seems to be a leo with an fma background; he favors the hold and hithithitetc. approach to disarms, based on his police experience, which he explains in more detail on the thread i mentioned earlier. personally, i would not be comfortable with any unarmed finish that was attempted while the opponent's knife has any mobility left.

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