kalari

hi,
what u people think,who will win if two experts of these two arts face to each other.Is there any similarities between these systems?which is more effective?

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JKDFIGHTER

Depends on who's holding the blades. Both arts are extremely effective and powerful. So much, in fact, that many of the Dog Brothers, who were based in PT, began adding more and more KK to their training.

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The O

It depends on the fighter, not the system.

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danjuandesiga

Eric"Top Dog" Knaus(PTK) vs Arlan "Salty Dog" Sanford(KK)

I would LOVE to see that happening!

Both of those dudes are so badass!

Daniel Arola

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MAMike

Can't understand why sometimes guys ask about a style vs. another style competition.... who care about that?

So long, Mike

__________________

LEARN TO STOP HIM, BEFORE HE STOPS YOU.
Jab 'n Hook Martial Arts Club

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Garland

...why don't you train both?
I've seen very little krabbi, but I hope to one day be able to go to thailand, perhaps to the buddhai swan school and learn.
I also want to really delve into pekiti/dekiti tirsia serradas escrima...
but that's not all there is out there...
I want to train some Sayoc, I want to train more Inosanto blend Kali....and I want to learn some of the Bakbakan stuff.
I want to do a bit of everything...study it for awhile, see if it works for me...if not, discard it, and if it does...continue to pursue it.


All of these arts are great...and in this day in age, if the trend going through all the martial arts world conintues to proliferate, I'm seeing the weapons arts beginning to crosstrain just as much as strikers and grapplers are beginning to crosstrain.

__________________
homo homini lupus

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Crafty Dog

Woof All:

Salty Dog and Top Dog HAVE fought each other-- I'm guessing well over 200 times.

In Dog Brothers Martial Arts (DBMA) we have begun blending Kali and Krabi Krabong which makes for the initials KKK. Although the historical resonance of these inititials in Filipino history is honorable, in the American context it most certainly is not, and so to name this material I have developed the pun "Los Triques" (Los Tri Ks, the 3 Ks) to name this portion of our curriculum. There is LT Single Stick and LT Double Stick. LT tends towards big sticks.

Like everyone in the DBs, neither Top or Salty is pure in any one system. Salty is strongly influenced by KK and is a certified Ajarn by the Buddaiswan Inst. in Thailand. BTW, , , , ahem , , , his "KK for DBMA" DVD is available on our website at www.dogbrothers.com The catalog has a clip too.

Salty's FMA foundation is Inosanto Blend and he trained with PG Edgar Sulite in Lameco too.

Top Dog, who always sought to absorb worthy ideas when he fought them in his final years of fighting showed influence from his fights with Salty.

It would be uncrafty of me to fail to mention to I have a 97% finished edit of "Los Triques Single Stick" sitting on my desk for me to review for final details prior to bringing in Top Dog for us to do our "Monday Night Football" commentary to the fights.

It should be available before the end of the month.

Woof,
Crafty Dog

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contra tirsia

to all martial artist.

I think the only way to test the art if effective or not,why we don't
it to settle down a good show of fighting live blade so that we will
see if effective your concern art.

some people are good in talking about the system,the only way is you
choice blade or sticks in filipino way of fighting no talk just fight.
we follow the culture of filipino.


Regards
Contra tirsia

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kalari

Heard Krabi Krabong has also got a close combat blade fighting system called
Awud Thai.Has anyone here got more information about this art.

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William

I have trained both in both FFA's & Pekiti-Tirsia as well as MT & KK. Admittedly I had trained a long time in the FFA's and a while in Muay Thai before I was introduced to Krabi-Krabong (hail out to Chalambok). Aspects of it felt immediately familiar because of my MT training, yet aspects of it also felt awkward because of my FFA training. If you come from a strictly FMA background, KK can feel a little weird at first. But if you have trained in Muay Thai, KK will have a very familiar feel to it. Why? Muay Thai comes from the weaponry technique of KK. Problem is that few people in the states have been exposed to KK, and even to many in Thailand it's thought of as more of a ceremonial art. The open hand component of MT has been heavily emphasized as a national sport and that is what has made its way here. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, Muay Thai is extremely effective and proven.

There are nine main weapons in Krabi Krabong. I am most familiar with single & double swords, knife, and the Mai Soks (Mai Soks are badass!!!). KK is powerful and effective.

One thing you have to remember about Systems like FMA and Krabi-Krabong is that the open hand and weapon movements go hand in hand. Open hand movements are derived directly from the use of weaponry technique. This is a characteristic of systems that are derived from actual warfare. Why?

First: Warfare is the use of weaponry, not open hand.
Two: Getting troops/warriors ready for battle as quickly as possible.

Teaching a system of weaponry and open hand together is faster and more efficient. And in the heat of battle, if your weapon gets broken or knocked out of your hand, you can keep flowing to open hand and with luck, eventually pick up another weapon with out thinking (i.e. shifting gears). Teaching one form of open hand, and then teaching weapons that are based off of different mechanics is a good sign that it was just added to the system for the sake of having a "weapons component". Most likely an original open hand system that added weapons later. Not a "war art". Plus taking 20 years to get good at a martial art is useless when defending your country from invaders. If you lose a battle with heavy casualties, are you going to be able to wait 6, 9, 10, 15, or 20 years to replenish your ranks? A sign of a good system is one that can get you proficient in a short period of time. The FMA's, Muay Thai/Krabi-Krabong do just that.

Is one better then the other? Yes....No...HA! They are both effective and highly efficient. That is a question you'll have to answer for yourself.

Best regards,
William

__________________
Mongrel Combative Arts
East Greenwich, Rhode Island
www.mongrelcombativearts.com


All you need is love........and a sharp blade.....a hardwood flat stick......Oh, oh, oh and a Paraordinance lda 14.45 loaded with 230 grain hydra shocks,ranger SXT's or golden sabres

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William

Going along similar lines that I posted above:



I think I originally posted this on the Dog Brothers forum sometime between 2001 & 2002. It was mainly in response to a question on kicking with weapons. I was also touching on the aspect of FFA's and Muay Thai interchangeability.



**************************************************************************************************** **********************************



I haven’t been able to keep up with the list in the last 6 – 8 months but one of my students showed me a thread going on about Filipino and Thai MA’s. Please forgive me if I cover any points that have already been made on the subject.



In my curriculum I teach Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Muay Thai. I teach them separately and do not intentionally blend them together. But, students who train in both systems soon discover that the systems can and do go well together. What results is a different but highly effective animal.



Let me preface this by saying that I spent close to two and a half years training privately and semi-privately at my home with Ajarn Steve Wilson (aka: Chalambok) in Krabi-Krabong and the open hand systems of Muay Boran & Muay Kacheuk. Also another five years in Muay-Lao Thai boxing with Guro John Daniels. As Crafty pointed out, KK does integrate Thai kicks & close range elbows and knees with weaponry. Unknown to many practitioners of “sport” Muay Thai, and people from other MA’s, the art of Muay Thai descends from the weaponry system of Krabi-Krabong. Similar to the Filipino Martial arts, Muay Thai is an open hand system of combat that is based off of weaponry technique. In my opinion, this is why they are able to blend so well together if you understand the systems.



What is important is not that you learn to “kick” while using weapons; it’s the emphasis on power generation from any angle. Kicks are used sparingly and strategically and are usually restricted to the low-line Thai round kicks and foot jabs. Anyone who has experienced MT either as a practitioner, or has been on the receiving end understands the raw power that is generated by the mechanics of the system at close and long range. Add to that the fluid foundation footwork and bridging & ranging tactics of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, plus the ability to flow with an armed or unarmed opponent and things start to get real interesting. Pekiti-Tirsia is a complete system (meaning covers all ranges), Muay Thai stands on it’s own as well. When the two start coming out together, you end up with fluid movement and timing combined with raw devastating power.



William

__________________
Mongrel Combative Arts
East Greenwich, Rhode Island
www.mongrelcombativearts.com


All you need is love........and a sharp blade.....a hardwood flat stick......Oh, oh, oh and a Paraordinance lda 14.45 loaded with 230 grain hydra shocks,ranger SXT's or golden sabres

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Ikka

Hi

I would like to explain what is about and who's who in Krabi Krabong.

Krabi means short weapons and krabong means long weapons.

In the short weapons area we include Knives, Mai San, Krabi(small sword)and MAE MAI MUAY THAI which is the only way to call the traditional Muay Thai (other terms exist only because copyrights). Also Muay Thai doesn't means boxing of thailand:muay is "fighting exchanging blows",Thai means Free. Thai people call Thailand Prathet Thai which means Land Free(as never been conquered) and they call themself Kon Thai= free people.

In the long weapons area Daab (sword), Daab Song Mue(double swords), Staff, Spear.

About who's who in KK we have to say that, in Thailand, lot has been said about this teacher (no name for respect) been the only teaching the true art or that school been the only in charged by King of Thailand to teach Royal Thai Commando....

Now, the point is that in Thailand there are about 400 school of KK, but if you go and ask to the many teachers(even different schools)who is the true last Master in Thailand everyone would pronounce the same name: Ajarn Thonglor Trairat, which is the Head teacher for the Thai Sports Association which is part of the Royal Thai Ministry of Sport.

Out side that, the only one non-thai AUTHORIZED (NOT recognized as many are)by this Bodies to promote KK is Ajarn Valerio Zadra, student under Ajarn Thonglor but a teacher himself now. He won the KK Championship in Thailand in 2002, only non-thai to ever partecipate. He's able to teach Krabi Krabong, Lerd rit/Su-Thai, Khan Sok, Mae Mai Muay Thai, Thai-Yuth.

Again now, if you go in Thailand and ask to the same teachers(randomly) what school has NEVER partecipated to this same championship( at which every other school in Siam is proud to just try to go to) almost all would call this one extremely popular (outside Siam) school.

I have been lucky enough to study KK for 11 years , first under Ajarn Zadra and then in Thailand for 1 & 1/2 years with Ajarn Thonglor. I still consider myself at the begin of my journey and it really frustrate me to see people that have been training for just 1 years (if that) call themself Khun Kru/Ajarn when they knowledge of the art is not even basic....without even counting the invented styles (pahuyuth/white monkey/muay boran).

If you really love Thai martial arts, whatever it is, check our website, we are a small association wich still works with the true ideals..

www.krabikrabong.it (the english version is under correction)

Sincerely

Hua Nai Pran

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Ikka

Also to that martial artist that ask that is Awut Thai, awut means weapons thai means free....hence free weapons, which could means either sparring or fight.
Take care, be well
HNP

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george stando

Ikka:
You dont know what the hell it is you are talking about first off. Obviously, you dont know who's who.

Secondly, dont bring your brand of foolish politics into a serious conversation.

There are foreingers who have trained way longer in Krabi Krabong than Valerio and know the true systems beyond even his knowledge(and longer than your 12.5 years to boot). As well Ajarn Thonglor and his son have directly trained one american and I know it because i was there to witness the training. Also there are genuine grandmasters of krabi krabong older or equal to ajanr thonglor who thonglor would acknowledge as legitmatme and real. I have forwarded your nonsense to ajarn thonglors son.

You dont know what you are talking about so go back to the altar of blindness and stupidity erected in honor of Valerio and bow down. In the darkness of your knowledge educated through ego, greed and folly in time you will learn the truth and bow humbly to it.

Until then leave the commercials and propaganda out of these forums where educated and well trained people roam and who will dispute your every foolish notion to the core and eventually lead to a physical challenge neither you nor Valerio are up to.

Also who cares about a physical education tournament? its just dancing the weapons and two man sets. What does that prove. What it proves is that Valerio is just a hollow dancer to the tune of his own drum.

Lastly, Valerio doesnt know lerd rit that comes from a very specific line of teachers and he can provide me with his teachers name for that since it can be verified very easily. But since he doesnt know it, it will be impossible to do.

And what about his muay? If its authentic then who was his chaiya, lanna, korat teachers. he doesnt have any. Thai Yuth is just compendium system as well. Who is his muay thai teacher and what is his kai muay in thailand?

if you studied with ajanr thonglor like you said for 1.5 years then you know Valerio is insulting a great master who is also very, very humble and nice. Valerio should emulate his teacher and grow up.


If you want to continue this you can IM me and we'll take this offline.

George

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Tee Sok

Good to read this post from you George. I don't like Valerio's propaganda
either, that goes against what MA are and more specifically against a traditional style like Krabi Krabong, with all the respect it involves.
I didn't post a reply because I don't know all the details as you do, but one thing is sure: this is all politics and selling/showing off.
I also wonder WHY these people have to look like if they were on the set of Conan the barbarian; why do Thai teachers look like normal people? Why do they even smile on the pictures and don't have the 'I am going to kill you' look?
Even the Dog Brothers don't have it!
I am Italian and I can see this has been going on for many years, both with Valerio and Decesaris.
The real problem is that people who have no knowledge of what's going on (like I did) will buy whatever they say.

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