Mike Brewer

Hey All;
We have some of the world's best blade-art practitioners in the world on this site, and it's something I don't think we take appropriate advantage of. I hope to rememdy that, or at least start to, with this thread. For the sake of clarity, I would welcome and truly appreciate any and all input from our Sayoc people, Atienza kali people, and any other system out there with something to say about blade training. I do want to stipulate in advance, though, that anyone willing to share here should be thanked, not criticized, for their views. This should not be a political thread or a "my style is better than your style" thread. Just some genuine sharing for those who genuinely want to learn.

I propose that we treat this like an "what-if" exercise. Here's the scenario:

My main area of interest is in the realm of realistic blade work for self-protection. I've had limited exposure to all kinds of systems in my lifetime, and most of them had something great to offer. But I would like to condense a lot of material down to the few things that are truly required for self-protection using the blade.

To set the parameters for this research, I'll define what I mean by "realistic." This term applies only to those circumstances I am likely to encounter in my daily life. If other people would like to expand the definition, they may feel free. For me, however, it translates into dealing primarily with four major types of engagements:

Multiple Attackers
Armed Attackers (firearms as well as impact and edged weapons)
Ambushes or Sucker Attacks
Violent Crimes, like muggings or break-ins.

I'm not really concerned about how to win a one-on-one engagement with an unarmed guy if I have the knife, so I'd prefer not to spend too much time on it. I should also point out that I carry one of two (sometimes both) blades on me, along with a pistol most of the time. The folding knife I carry is pretty standard. I use it for utility purposes in my daily life and maintain a shaving edge on it. The fixed blade I most often carry is a SOG Daggert2. I attached pics rather than try to describe it. It is intended for defensive use, and is never used for utility cutting. It is therefore surgically sharp all the time. It will slash to good effect (I've done a test cut through three layers of jacket leather and 4" of meat, and penetration tests without even a whisper of resistance through the same) and is equally capable in thrusting. I mention these tools because they are what I carry, and they are the sort of thing I need to build my capabilities around. I have neither the money nor inclination to go out and buy a half a dozen knives, and I don't want to carry things I'm just going to throw away. In a nutshell, I am not opposed to using a different kind of knife, but I want to be able to use one, not many, to get the job done. And all things considered, I'd really rather put the gun to work if things get that desperate.

So with those things taken into consideration, and with the scenarios I am most concerned about, what advice would you have? Please treat this topic as though you are talking to someone with little or no training, and do not be worried about insulting my intelligence. Specifically, please detail the kinds of training, drills, etc. you might recommend to someone who is trying to accomplish the above and has only minimal experience.

Thanks for participating in this little exercise. I appreciate all of your input in advance.

Attached Images

  

Sun_Helmet

If that knife is legal where you are Mike then it's a good enough knife.

Just some basic suggestions:

1. Figure out where you carry the weapons on you and most importantly ... why you carry them there (the plusses and minuses).
2. Drill transitioning/deploying and being mobile with said weapons.
3. Install accuracy with your EDC (that's usually a given for firearms, but often ignored for edged weapons).
4. Train weapon retention tactics.
5. Go beyond your comfort zone.


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

Mike Brewer

I'm fortunate with blade laws here, and the CCW permit allows for a lot as well. What would be your recommendations for carry, then? I usually keep the pistol on my right hip, just behind my jean pocket. The spare magazine goes on the left hip, and currently, I carry the knife just behind that. I've found that the magazine carrier helps with weapon retention (it blocks attempts to grab my knife from in front of me) without hindering my left-hand draw too much. My folder is usually on the right pocket, in front of the pistol. However, you're one of the foremost blade authorities here, so I'd be very appreciative of any opinions you might have on the topic.

Also, I wanted to tell you that your advice a year or so ago (maybe even longer) about some of the awareness drills was excellent. I am certain that it contributed to many fine soldiers coming home safely from combat. Because that advice was so good, I'd like to ask you for some of your favorite accuracy drills. I still use what I call a "cat toy," which is nothing more than a small rubber ball on a long string. It's very small and it moves erratically so it's hard to cut or thrust. It's almost like the double end ball equivalent for my knife training. But it's only one method, and it's a little like bullseye shooting. Doesn't replicate the body all that well. Advice?

Tant01

You know Mike, I ain't no expert knifer, not even an artist by most standards but by far the weakest link in the realistic encounter is deployment IMHO.

I can expand on that some but getting the knife into your hand at the moment you need it is a most critical skill. Doing it while you evade or recover from a serious attack is a real challenge. Doing it from a position of disadvantage is even more difficult not to mention any serious trauma you may have suffered.

I've read a number of most excellent articles in this forum. You're exactly right about the quality of individuals here.

Good idea, I look forward to the replies!

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

Mike Brewer

Deployment is indeed a major issue, which is how I interpreted Rafael's comment about where (and why) you carry your blades. It's why I choose to carry my fixed blade right behind a magazine carrier - it serves as a shield from frontal grabs by opponents, and it acts a s a sort of index for my hand that always drops my hand right where it needs to be.

Some elements of the deployment of the blade that I try to pay atttention to are:

Distraction. I learned this from old sleight of hand magic tricks. I find that I am much more effective if I do something to focus attention away from the knife as I am drawing it.

Timing. The fastest method for deployment is having the knife in your hand, right? So I try to see situations developing early and draw before I need to. If I need to employ the blade, it's out. If I don't, I can always conceal it and put it away once I'm out of sight.

Judgement. Knowing when I intend to use my blade, morally, ethically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. This allows me to avoid hesitation at crucial moments and draw with the intent to do harm. It's something I've drilled with firearms since day one, and I don't figure blades to be any different.

Of course, Sun Helmet, Airyu, and many others are far more qualified to discuss the important aspects than I am, so I look forward to their responses.

Sun_Helmet

Mike,
If you are comfortable with that carry and have gotten it to function in stress drills then it's all good. Another is being able to get back to primary afterwards, so making sure you know where the blade goes after is important too. How does it affect your shooting and is your deployment similar to the way you would access your firearm.


There's two schools of thought on this. It usually depends on the individual's personal learning curve, how they function and personality.

1. You want to have like-minded patterns so that you can move during adrenal stress situations without thinking of two different things.

2. You want two distinct ways to access two very different types of weapons because the mind can play tricks on you during times of stress.
You might end up drawing a clip instead of a knife, vice versa if the muscle memory for both functions are similar.

Again, it's a personal preference and comfort zone.


Glad to hear it. We've had a bunch of excellent responses from military we have trained so far.

On the cat toy -
1. Add stress levels to the accuracy drills. Stuff that would make the person aware of things going on beyond the target. Remove the tunnel vision since that's what gets "trained" individuals in trouble.
2. Change the environment. Low light, smoke filled, rain, level changes, intense light, etc.
3. Actually attach that cat toy to a part of someone's body and try to gain access to it in different scenarios. Isolate the target for that drill. Then have the guy find all the ways to counter you gaining access to that target. Then find out how the prevention and focus on that target from the receiver opens up a logical order of targeting. Then add the above two elements I stated above to the drills. That's Sayoc principles at work.

Outside of applying drills to someone who increases their resistance, it is difficult to get the same results. Also, the gradual increase of the training has to have a rhyme and reason, or you end up with a haphazard patched together system. However, what you're doing now with training accuracy from the target out is very important since I've had "discussions" with other knife experts on other forums who have had trouble with internal targeting. They are still surface slashers.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

lionleo

I would not speculate on anybody's experience, i have faced a knife before in my younger days in the Philippines (Mindanao in particular). It was just by God's grace that i did not get hit and at the same time, the person that swung the knife was not really a knife expert.

But my whole respect for blades and the reality of it has never left me upto this day. Since then i treat knives as a very fearsome implement. In our training we use trainers and treat them as real knives by swinging hard on the training partner simulating a real attack and really trying to hurt the partner. Doing this so has prevented us from treating any drill as just a drill..MY two cents sirs.

http://kidlatarnis.tripod.com
www.combat-concepts.com

Mike Brewer

Leo, I think you're onto something with that idea. One of the things I always liked about the Dog Brothers methods was the "honesty" of the drills and sparring. Because it was done with heavy sticks, minimal gear, and loads of contact, no one was ever encouraged to have any false ideas about what the training meant. Sounds like your ideas on the knife are very similar. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Rafael,
As always, I appreciate the contribution. One of my biggest assets with the knife is a pair of surgeons I train. They are both avid hunters, and so we end up with a lot of organ meat to do test cutting on every fall. While it may sound a little gruesome, it's telling to wrap the organs in meat, cover it with scrap leather, and see what it takes to actually get past the coverings to the organs inside. It's also a very graphic visual of what we're talking about when we deal with blades.

Regarding the changing light conditions, one thing we use constantly when working with law enforcement or military is a set of strobes. We have police-type red and blue, and we have a white strobe. Placing them in different parts of the training room throws the shadows around wildly, and it can play games with your targeting. I like the idea of attaching a moving target to an active sparring partner under those conditions. Thanks again for the great advice.

samson818

Hello all,
I am fairly new to this forum, but Mr. Brewer's post really peaked my interest.
I really do appreciate all the great training options from our local blade authorities.
But one thing I have always had the most problems with was bridging the gap of someone with a blade or trainer.
Is is also a problem empty hand as well, but not as dangerous. (I am willing to get tagged by a fist, but not by a serrated combat blade)
It seems that once you have engaged and are within range, with proper training within most styles of FMA, you have a variety of options (strikes, joint manipulations, reversals, tapping, trapping, destructions....).
But I have not seen many properly engage realistically.
What are all your thoughts on training this functionally?
(Empty hand vs. single blade)

Mike Brewer

Samson, I share your frustration in that area. Although I can't really imagine why I'd want to close with a knife wielding assailant if I were in long range and identified the knife, I too have difficulty doing it without getting cut or otherwise perforated. It's damned difficult when someone is intent on getting you. In the past, as a result of many, many failed attempts, I have found I'm a lot more effective using barriers and distance to keep the guy away while I bring a firearm to bear. Bullets close the distance a lot faster than I can, and the pressure of a firearm will many times allow me to draw a blade while he's deciding whether or not to try and close. It's ugly, but it's the best answer I have. I too would love to get some input on the topic, and I know our Sayoc family constituent here has some of the very best (if not THE best) close range blade work in the world. Hopefully, they can shed some light on the matter for us.

Kali_Warrior

Hello all; Mike this is an interesting topic..

As a person who carries weapons. Mostly knives or blunt weapons. At times I have carried my .45, etc. I have found there are some tactical considerations.

1. Do you really need to carry a Gun + xtra mag?

Most situations will call for minimal force. My Tactical approach is to consider where I am going that day. If I need my .45, I will take that + a possible blunt weapon in the car.
Its good that you train. You should think about weapon clutter. I.O.W Are you carrying too many weapons? In a heated situation, you may only have a second to decide what weapon is nessasary for the threat. Your knives are just as deadly as you side arm. The only real difference is effective distance.
Your knives also are much harder to control vs a handgun..(assuming you get into a wrestling match or end up on the ground)


Will your weapons be in your way during a fight? If you fall, will your knife jab you or your gun jab and potentially go off if the trigger gets caught up on an object?

IMHO you should decide at some point in your day what weapon(s) may be needed to carry at a minimum. The fewer the better, typically, unless you work or play in a high stakes arena.

From your 1st post I am assuming (I could be wrong) that you are not traininig with an instructor. Advice here is great but acctually training with a Kali instructor is better. You will get more proficient if you train with others..

Mike Brewer

Kali Warrior,
Well said. And I should make clear that I generally only carry the pistol and folding knife. However, I strongly support carrying an extra magazine. If it is worth drawing my gun and firing over, it may indeed be worth reloading over as well. I'd hope like crazy that I never have to shoot anyone, but what I hope for even more is that I never die for a lack of shooting back.

And for clutter, you have a very, very valid point. However, I am a fairly big guy, and two belt-held weapons do not clutter up my "workspace." Were I smaller, it might. But as it stands, the knife on my side fits well, does not interfere with my clothing or functionality, and feels generally comfortable. And like I said, that's only there occasionally. Usually, it's a folder that's as unobtrusive as they come, and the pistol (which I feel naked without. )

Your statement about considering where you'll be that day plays a large part in that decision. If I know I'll be travelling in uncertain territory (especially with my wife) I am apt to be better armed. However, if I'm on my way to the gym, that may dictate something different. Please don't take my description to mean that I am always wandering around on high alert, wearing kevlar sleeves and a vest, strapped to the nines all the time. My carry tools and methods vary according to the situation.

As for training, you're right. I am not training with an instructor. I'm training with half a dozen. My post is phrased the way it is because I want to learn from those with more experience here (and there are tons of them), and because I want to compare my own findings to their advice. I've often found that advice from someone like Rafael goes a very, very long way. Often, it's enough to spark ideas that I can work on my own school floor, or with the soldiers I train.

Finally, please don't think I'm being dismissive of your advice. It's actually terriffic - especially your statement about minimalism. I wholeheartedly agree, and it's something more people should consider. There is a tendency to get "gear happy" in many martial arts, and weapons people are some of the worst. The "more is better" philosophy often times replaces quality training and common sense, which is a shame. Thanks very much for participating, and please continue to do so. Your comments are valued.

inayan

Interesting thread! I would only add (or reiterate) a couple points. First and foremost - keep things simple. Find something you believe in and train it - over and over.

For any system, style or defense method to be worthwhile - it must be simple. The more complex the knife defense is for the situations and scenarios you describe the more possibility for everything to go bad fast. It is unfortunate that sometimes the flashy stuff is what attracts and interest us. But the reality is that under an adrenal dump it is the simple and redundantly trained (gross motor movements) moves that will work.

As for your carry... again, whatever works for you but just make it habit. I know some that carry many knives on them and consider that the back up plan. My train of thought on that issue is that I carry one or two and know exactly how to get them out under all situations and also protect them at all cost. Everyone is different. Also it may be possible that one of the styles or instructors your training under may dictate the how, where and number of your carry based solely on the techniques trained or taught. Thoughts to consider may be stance (strong side vs. support side), hand position etc...

Another thing... I personally try not to let my outing dictate what I carry - what I carry dictates my outing. I know life is not always that simple but I constantly weigh the options anytime I leave the home front. If I do get caught out empty handed when the crap hits the fan the one thing I will not be is surprised as I had made a decision to be that way and I will live (or die) with it.

Thanks!

__________________
The Martial Art with an "edge"...

--
Tagaturo Klement
www.inayan.com
www.inayan.com/forums
Inayan School of Eskrima

Sun_Helmet

Good point, although it all depends if what is being taught is applicable for the given situation.

Change "Simple" to "Smart".

For example: A sidestroke is a complex series of movements that requires training, but it is taught to many rescuers and SF personnel because the movements work. They do not use the much simpler "doggie paddle" or treading water movement for these tasks. Add the other factors that come into play with those types of high stress tasks, it proves that "keeping it Smart" can be a better choice of training than just choosing something simple.

A simple/gross motor movement that is not applicable can get you killed as fast as a flashy one. My definition of a flashy movement is something a person can not pull it off. It is only flashy if the instruction can not transfer those skill sets to application.

People do complex tasks all the time under extreme stress - it all becomes relative. To the normal person, flying a plane is a complex high stress situation, you can't just pull someone off the street and seat them in a 747's pilot chair. However trained pilots fly every minute of the day. A series of complex movements were taught systematically so that they can be applied.

They are not simple movements but smart complex movements and are only flashy from the perspective of those who do not use those skill sets. For example, I'm sure that as a FMA instructor you have had people comment on FMA movements being flashy, or drills being non applicable - however, you know you or people you have taught/trained under can pull them off. Thus, although it may be complex to the critics, it is not from the perspective of those who have acquired the proper training and skill sets to make it work.



--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

inayan

Hi Rafael -

Smart is good, the right tools for the right job is correct. I totally agree with that and it is a wonderful point you made.

Regarding Fine versus Gross motor skills I can't really think of any athletic sport that entails using Fine motor skills at high speeds under high stress. I think the MA's and especially the FMA's probably come closer to using Fine skills than almost anything else. I believe that you can put together several gross motor movements in a sequence under high stress levels and thus you have Complex motor skills. And without the proper level of training, that we both know is needed, Motor Memory Weakness will occur (the trouble in accurately recalling the sequences of muscle movements required for a specific skill). The FMA in this regard is in a class all by itself as we certainly do put together some incredibly complex sets that, yes, can be performed in high levels of stress. In any case I believe we are in agreement that "people do complex tasks all the time under extreme stress". However, where flying a plane (as you use as example) must involve an extreme level of stress for someone that does not have proper training - I do not believe it involves Fine motor skills so we are actually saying the same thing.

Many of the drills we use in Inayan (for example) do use some Fine motor skills but we train them for several different reasons. I would just offer up that it is important to anyone that wants to survive the scenarios described in the original post of this thread be wary that these types of drills are not designed for this purpose. They have there own separate purpose(s). To survive these encounters, for the average person - simple (or smart) is very, very important.

I have been put under what I would call extreme stress and have seen the effects on my Fine motor skills. They were nearly non existent. However, I could still perform many Gross motor skills in sequence. This did not deter from my training beliefs but reinforced them. I know that with repetitive training, especially as it applies to our arts, we can be successful even under the worse case scenarios.

I honestly believe we are in agreement but I just wanted to elaborate my point slightly.

Anyway, as you alluded, what is a terribly complex looking technique to an outsider looking at our arts is just normal stuff for those that have put thousands of repetitions in. We seemingly pull off the impossible and I think that is one of the beautiful aspects of the FMA's.

__________________
The Martial Art with an "edge"...

--
Tagaturo Klement
www.inayan.com
www.inayan.com/forums
Inayan School of Eskrima