FULL CONTACT STAFF FIGHTING ???

knuckledragger · 10-05-2000, 09:54 PM

No .. Ive never done it ... but id be interested in hearing from anyone who has. What techniques/strikes have worked in fullcontact? Do you ever go to the ground . When I practice with my staff I do spear -like thrusts, basic bayonet type strikes , baseball bat type swings, and blocks and parries (4 ft staff ). When I hit the bag I can really feel the power that a staff has,and I remember the comments of one of the guys on the DB videos about its power. sparring with it must be ugly indeed , Anyone ever done staff vs single stick ?

quietanswer · 10-06-2000, 09:21 AM

sparring in an old traditional karate class i took back some time ago. the staff hits much harder than my sticks do.. more leverage..so be careful with your body when you're taking blows. we'd put pipe insulation and TONS of duct tape on ours.. which still meant for a painful blow.

we grappled with staves some too..though we didn't have a name for it like stickgrappling (nor did any of this know aobut it, or jkd, or fma, or anything else).. and it was interesting.. i found judo reaps (major inner/ major outer/ minor inner/ minor outer..etc) work pretty well with my staff, oppurtunity permitting. you snag the leg and drive forward with the center of the staff..very cool...not to mention some guys (though i wasn't one of them) were good at using the staff to do footsweeps/reaps...the staff is full of incredible possiblities, in my opinion. it's just such a complex weapon that i always put it off and do more stickwork..

i'll tell you, one key difference between the staff and a stick is the deceptiveness. if you use a staff like a 2' stick, then you are missing out on some of it's abilities..

my teacher had me do an exercise that involved holding the staff with an even grip (shoulder width or closer, in the center, evenly distributed).

face your opponent squarely and start to use the right end of the staff to do a number one angle strike.

before making contact, however, you let the one angle slip by as you step forward with your right leg, and hit him on the same 1 angle with the left end of the staff.

perhaps you already know drills of this sort. the trick about a staff is that you can change angles just as easily as with a stick, but you have TWO ends to do it with, not to mention the center of the staff (which is an excellent defensive tool)..

if what i've typed makes no sense, and you're curious, just let me know. i'll elaborate further.

dwayne

also, be sure you're hitting something with the staff. a heavy bag, a pole in your backyard. something. the weapon reacts much differently when actually striking an object.

Chad W. Getz · 10-10-2000, 09:08 AM

Speaking as someone that has stood on both sides against and with the staff vs. stick, I can say that I would rather be holding the stick. Some meaty ones at that. I found it easy to close against the staff with my stick. I found it to be yes a little sneaky in it's movement, but once you get inside the range that guy holding the staff will be scared. One thing to work on is grabbing the staff once you get inside. From there you can hit whatever you want. When fighting with the staff, I had an appreciation for how to use it only because I had fought against it. So my plan with the staff was to tighten all the weakness' that I saw when I fought against it. All I can say is that you have to be able to strike with fearsome power while being able to close your door after the swing and know how to accept the close of your partner, because if he's got balls and even a little bit of brain, he's coming in. On another note, my consideration of someone who knows how to use a staff is someone that fights with a staff alot. I haven't fought someone like this yet, so this is my obsevation of the novice staff fighters that I've faced.

quietanswer · 10-23-2000, 04:15 PM

my fight partner and I found on thursday night during sparring sessions with our staves..

I found it useful to do a circling Huen sao movemnt while holding the staff in a long reaching position (by the end).. I might start with the tip in an upward angle (the back end is near my hip level or so).. I move the tip down the side of his body, past his feet, and swing it in a circle back up to the other side of his face to score..

likewise, I might just move down and strike his ankle/achilles tendon, rather than progress to the face..and of course it works the same moving from feet, high to face, then circling down to feet again..

It reminds me of the Huen Sao from wing chun (circling disengagement), but with a staff instead.

you follow this?
It's probably a basic concept, but when i discovered, it was a major breakthrough for me..

you ought to play with the staff more, chad.. i think you might find a whole host of new tricks that changes your mind about it..I know i'm really enjoying it..

Chad W. Getz · 10-23-2000, 10:43 PM

Something with the staffs(why do you sell it staves-am I mis-spelling it? anyhow,) I was talking with a fencer and he was talking about the progressions that has happened over the years. He was telling me that fencers devide there defensive target as area as quarters. If you hold the foil in the center, you have four quarters to defend. Two at the top-one to the left and one to the right, and two on the bottom, same way. Then some guy figured if he hel it to the right side all the time, he only has to defend upper left and lower left. Never mind with the rest of the post, I was going to say something else, but it doesn't make much sense to me now and I think it's going to tun into a different thread about stick on stick defense.

quietanswer · 10-24-2000, 01:10 PM

well, i'm still interested in where you're going with it, chad..

i have read a fencing book, and also read (and re read) bruce's Tao o' jkd.. and i have to say fencing has some great parrying concepts.. i have seen the four quarter division concept.. so expand for me..

since you ask, yeah, plural for staff is 'staves'.. like knife and knives..but i knew what you meant.

Chop Wisby · 11-12-2000, 03:18 AM

check out http://www.thehaca.com

go to "historical manuals online,"

find the swetman manual & read the staff section;

also some pole-weapons stuff in the manuals by george silver;

interesting stuff.

Chop Wisby

Kevin · 11-12-2000, 01:17 PM

One basic tactic that was used in Dog Bros tape #6 was to knock your opponents staff down and follow with a thrust. In the fight mentioned the thrust seemed to hit a few inches below the throat into the chest. A few inches higher might have resulted in a serious injury.

~Kev
p.s.- This is NOT addressed to anyone....lest you take it personally, and come looking for me packing staves!

Chop Wisby · 11-13-2000, 03:13 AM

Of 103 homicides in Nottinghamshire between 1485 & 1558, the staff accounted for 53, the sword for nine.

Source: The Secret History of the Sword, by J. Christoph Amberger, p. 200; citing Robin Hood, by J.C. Holt

Chad W. Getz · 11-14-2000, 07:43 PM

Great book, Chop.

Chop Wisby · 11-15-2000, 01:23 AM

agreed, chad.

p.s. a guy who knows how to work that staff-thrust can really give you headaches . . .

an ongoing pool-cue-type motion can mess up your distancing, if you're the guy trying to close . . .

cf. the guy with the jo on DB#6.

Chad W. Getz · 11-15-2000, 08:26 PM

Oh, definetely. The staff is a weapon to respect...as long as the man weilding it knows what he is doing. Like I always tell people, when fighting a staff it is so easy to "see" the opening, but doing it is something else. If there is one variable other than the one you are thinking will happen, it is enough to make most people re-think.

Chop Wisby · 11-16-2000, 01:44 AM

in the spirit of full disclosure; i learned about the pool-cue-motion by being on the receiving end

(fortunately not FULL contact)

Chop Wisby

10-06-2000, 09:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	we did some staff sparring in an old traditional karate class i took back some time ago. the staff hits much harder than my sticks do.. more leverage..so be careful with your body when you're taking blows. we'd put pipe insulation and TONS of duct tape on ours.. which still meant for a painful blow. we grappled with staves some too..though we didn't have a name for it like stickgrappling (nor did any of this know aobut it, or jkd, or fma, or anything else).. and it was interesting.. i found judo reaps (major inner/ major outer/ minor inner/ minor outer..etc) work pretty well with my staff, oppurtunity permitting. you snag the leg and drive forward with the center of the staff..very cool...not to mention some guys (though i wasn't one of them) were good at using the staff to do footsweeps/reaps...the staff is full of incredible possiblities, in my opinion. it's just such a complex weapon that i always put it off and do more stickwork.. i'll tell you, one key difference between the staff and a stick is the deceptiveness. if you use a staff like a 2' stick, then you are missing out on some of it's abilities.. my teacher had me do an exercise that involved holding the staff with an even grip (shoulder width or closer, in the center, evenly distributed). face your opponent squarely and start to use the right end of the staff to do a number one angle strike. before making contact, however, you let the one angle slip by as you step forward with your right leg, and hit him on the same 1 angle with the left end of the staff. perhaps you already know drills of this sort. the trick about a staff is that you can change angles just as easily as with a stick, but you have TWO ends to do it with, not to mention the center of the staff (which is an excellent defensive tool).. if what i've typed makes no sense, and you're curious, just let me know. i'll elaborate further. dwayne also, be sure you're hitting something with the staff. a heavy bag, a pole in your backyard. something. the weapon reacts much differently when actually striking an object. __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-10-2000, 09:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509	Speaking as someone that has stood on both sides against and with the staff vs. stick, I can say that I would rather be holding the stick. Some meaty ones at that. I found it easy to close against the staff with my stick. I found it to be yes a little sneaky in it's movement, but once you get inside the range that guy holding the staff will be scared. One thing to work on is grabbing the staff once you get inside. From there you can hit whatever you want. When fighting with the staff, I had an appreciation for how to use it only because I had fought against it. So my plan with the staff was to tighten all the weakness' that I saw when I fought against it. All I can say is that you have to be able to strike with fearsome power while being able to close your door after the swing and know how to accept the close of your partner, because if he's got balls and even a little bit of brain, he's coming in. On another note, my consideration of someone who knows how to use a staff is someone that fights with a staff alot. I haven't fought someone like this yet, so this is my obsevation of the novice staff fighters that I've faced. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

10-23-2000, 04:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	one thing my fight partner and I found on thursday night during sparring sessions with our staves.. I found it useful to do a circling Huen sao movemnt while holding the staff in a long reaching position (by the end).. I might start with the tip in an upward angle (the back end is near my hip level or so).. I move the tip down the side of his body, past his feet, and swing it in a circle back up to the other side of his face to score.. likewise, I might just move down and strike his ankle/achilles tendon, rather than progress to the face..and of course it works the same moving from feet, high to face, then circling down to feet again.. It reminds me of the Huen Sao from wing chun (circling disengagement), but with a staff instead. you follow this? It's probably a basic concept, but when i discovered, it was a major breakthrough for me.. you ought to play with the staff more, chad.. i think you might find a whole host of new tricks that changes your mind about it..I know i'm really enjoying it.. __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-23-2000, 10:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509	Something with the staffs(why do you sell it staves-am I mis-spelling it? anyhow,) I was talking with a fencer and he was talking about the progressions that has happened over the years. He was telling me that fencers devide there defensive target as area as quarters. If you hold the foil in the center, you have four quarters to defend. Two at the top-one to the left and one to the right, and two on the bottom, same way. Then some guy figured if he hel it to the right side all the time, he only has to defend upper left and lower left. Never mind with the rest of the post, I was going to say something else, but it doesn't make much sense to me now and I think it's going to tun into a different thread about stick on stick defense. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

10-24-2000, 01:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	well, i'm still interested in where you're going with it, chad.. i have read a fencing book, and also read (and re read) bruce's Tao o' jkd.. and i have to say fencing has some great parrying concepts.. i have seen the four quarter division concept.. so expand for me.. since you ask, yeah, plural for staff is 'staves'.. like knife and knives..but i knew what you meant. __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-05-2000, 09:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
knuckledragger Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 42	No .. Ive never done it ... but id be interested in hearing from anyone who has. What techniques/strikes have worked in fullcontact? Do you ever go to the ground . When I practice with my staff I do spear -like thrusts, basic bayonet type strikes , baseball bat type swings, and blocks and parries (4 ft staff ). When I hit the bag I can really feel the power that a staff has,and I remember the comments of one of the guys on the DB videos about its power. sparring with it must be ugly indeed , Anyone ever done staff vs single stick ?

11-12-2000, 03:18 AM	#7 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	euro staff check out http://www.thehaca.com go to "historical manuals online," find the swetman manual & read the staff section; also some pole-weapons stuff in the manuals by george silver; interesting stuff. Chop Wisby

11-12-2000, 01:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kevin Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 151	Stave you knave! One basic tactic that was used in Dog Bros tape #6 was to knock your opponents staff down and follow with a thrust. In the fight mentioned the thrust seemed to hit a few inches below the throat into the chest. A few inches higher might have resulted in a serious injury. ~Kev p.s.- This is NOT addressed to anyone....lest you take it personally, and come looking for me packing staves!

11-13-2000, 03:13 AM	#9 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	the staff is mightier . . . Of 103 homicides in Nottinghamshire between 1485 & 1558, the staff accounted for 53, the sword for nine. Source: The Secret History of the Sword, by J. Christoph Amberger, p. 200; citing Robin Hood, by J.C. Holt

11-14-2000, 07:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509	Great book, Chop. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

11-15-2000, 01:23 AM	#11 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	amberger agreed, chad. p.s. a guy who knows how to work that staff-thrust can really give you headaches . . . an ongoing pool-cue-type motion can mess up your distancing, if you're the guy trying to close . . . cf. the guy with the jo on DB#6.

11-15-2000, 08:26 PM	#12 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509	Oh, definetely. The staff is a weapon to respect...as long as the man weilding it knows what he is doing. Like I always tell people, when fighting a staff it is so easy to "see" the opening, but doing it is something else. If there is one variable other than the one you are thinking will happen, it is enough to make most people re-think. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

11-16-2000, 01:44 AM	#13 (permalink)
Chop Wisby Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 214	full disclosure in the spirit of full disclosure; i learned about the pool-cue-motion by being on the receiving end (fortunately not FULL contact) Chop Wisby

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