The Ultimate in Martial Arts

**Garland** · 06-16-2009, 11:43 AM

Does kunsi = kino mutai?

**Michael Wright** · 06-16-2009, 11:48 AM

Kunsi is the locking portion of the art, though its best not to get tied up in terminology as different systems and dialects vary greatly.

**Garland** · 06-16-2009, 11:56 AM

So buying the Rosetta Stone for Tagalog won't even help?

Oh well...I guess that'll save me some dough.

prendergast · 06-16-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

I think I may a have a list of the panatukan progressions somewhere...does anyone want me to list it?

Go for it! I for one would be very interested.

Tim Brown · 06-29-2009, 09:47 PM

I also would love to see whatever progressions for panantukan you have available!

**Garland** · 06-30-2009, 03:53 AM

Here's a site where I found some...

Academy Of Jeet Kune Do Fighting Technology

this page is in Greek, so translate it on your browser to get to the meat of the matter.

MasterKaliSilat · 06-30-2009, 06:11 AM

Many systems, many similarities, and how much did you want? I only suggest one principle, "Can you stop me? Can I stop you? No matter what according to the experts in the Philippines at the home of Eskrima, Anis, Doce Pares follows the same rules. 1st Rule: There are no rules. 2nd Rule: Cheat. 3rd Rule, remember the first two rules! It doesn't matter what you practice, if you've done the many drills you cover all the ground. According to GM Dionisio Canete, "We have a drill for everything!" Once you've applied the training, the system doesn't matter, "Can you stop me?" It was from GM Canete that I realized I was in the real place for leaning about the Philippines Art & Science of Human Life, back in 1977 was my first visit to Cebu. Since then I've met many that said they know, but few could back it up. One guy actually insisted there's no footwork in Kali, I guess because he couldn't do it. Learn all you can learn, take the drills, the footwork, the method of striking, learn the mechanics of how you move, re-create how you do it! This most profound message is passed from the late Suryadi Jafri, RIP 1998, Pencak Silat, Lanka Empat.

MasterKaliSilat · 06-30-2009, 06:25 AM

One more link in this dubious knife defense thing. There is no defense against the knife, in WW2 they soldiers where shooting these Philippine Warriors, and they were still getting their heads chopped off. If the guy knows the knife, best not to be there. I have experienced so many individuals that CLAIM they can stop my knife. I proved to them they can't, as did many of the Doce Pares and many, many other Filipino systems. You need a knock down bullet, and plenty of room to shoot. Remember there are only 3 rules in a knife fight: 1) No rules. 2) Cheat. 3) Remember the first two rules.

**Michael Wright** · 06-30-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterKaliSilat

One more link in this dubious knife defense thing. There is no defense against the knife, in WW2 they soldiers where shooting these Philippine Warriors, and they were still getting their heads chopped off. If the guy knows the knife, best not to be there. I have experienced so many individuals that CLAIM they can stop my knife. I proved to them they can't, as did many of the Doce Pares and many, many other Filipino systems. You need a knock down bullet, and plenty of room to shoot. Remember there are only 3 rules in a knife fight: 1) No rules. 2) Cheat. 3) Remember the first two rules.

Words from masters throughout the years are great to hear and always interesting to read. It is important how we position them, and statements should be considered in their correct timeframe and context.

On the battlefield, against a master with the blade, no I wouldn’t want to be there and have no intention of being there. However, for 99.9% of normal people in modern society, the notion of a knife fight with a blade master is moot point. The concept of knife defence is not dubious, it is current, relevant, and there is most certainly such a thing as stopping a knife. I’ve done it, some who teach me have done it, some who I have taught have done it. Only one in seven of the knife assaults in my country result in a fatality - knives are stopped all the time. The bottom line is, it just doesn’t make as good a story as the deaths.

**Garland** · 06-30-2009, 03:40 PM

I beg to differ with you Michael, based on these ideas, certainly I'm no expert, but these things influence my opinion...1) a knife, statistically, (at least in MY country) has a great deal more lethality than a firearm...and 2) you don't need to be a "knife master" in order to use it lethally, or to the point where it permanently disfigures and maims. And finally...3) in many instances only one party will know that a knife is involved until the incident has passed...I know this too well as I have TWICE had to clean up aquaintances or strangers who had been stuck in a hit and run manner. Nobody had even seen the stabbings occur, and the victims stated that they had simply felt like somebody punched them and ran off. (luckily for them, missing organs and arteries)

{as an aside, I'll tell you it's easier to deal with somebody like this keeping calm and trying to avoid THEM from freaking out or going into shock without their insane and drug addled girlfriend screaming and yelling AT their wounded boyfriend on the way to the hospital FOR being stabbed. sheesh! Also...In retrospect, I shouldn't have wasted my nice scarf on this kid, but I'm a good Samaritan type.}

Of course it is possible to stop a knife...but in many of the worst situations, it is unlikely. Really...I think it depends on the intentions of the individual with the knife, as well as the lucidity and skill of the person being attacked...

If the individual's intention is to stab you from the onset...and they aren't haphazardly brandishing the weapon...I doubt most individuals would know they'd even been stabbed until they saw the blood...and the other person was halfway down the street.

What is the phraze, "incidental if not accidental"?

**Michael Wright** · 06-30-2009, 05:30 PM

You've misrepresenting my post Garland into some kind of blanket statement where knives are not dangerous, which is not what I said. My points were in response to that quote specifically, they were simple and threefold:

1. 99.9% of normal people in modern society will never experience a knife fight in warfare against a kali master - that I stand by 100%.

2. The post claimed a knife cannot be stopped, I'm saying for a fact that they can and are, all the time.

3. The paranoia and drama around the lethal nature of all knife attacks is hyped and grossly exagerrated by martial artists. 6 out of every 7 people in the UK survive a knife attack, that is a statistical fact published by the Home Office. The the same statistics I quoted for the UK are freely available for the USA, and they are barely different. Contact your local Law Enforcement Agency, its a public document.

I don't make throw away comments about knife or knife defence, its an area I take very seriously because I teach it to front line professionals. The point of my post was that I felt the quote was out of context and innacurate in the current environment. I stand by it - you are by all means welcome to disagree.

And stop watching so many Kali DVDs, you're buying the hype hook, line and sinker

**Garland** · 06-30-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

You've misrepresenting my post Garland into some kind of blanket statement where knives are not dangerous, which is not what I said. My points were in response to that quote specifically, they were simple and threefold:

1. 99.9% of normal people in modern society will never experience a knife fight in warfare against a kali master - that I stand by 100%.

2. The post claimed a knife cannot be stopped, I'm saying for a fact that they can and are, all the time.

3. The paranoia and drama around the lethal nature of all knife attacks is hyped and grossly exagerrated by martial artists. 6 out of every 7 people in the UK survive a knife attack, that is a statistical fact published by the Home Office. The the same statistics I quoted for the UK are freely available for the USA, and they are barely different. Contact your local Law Enforcement Agency, its a public document.

I don't make throw away comments about knife or knife defence, its an area I take very seriously because I teach it to front line professionals. The point of my post was that I felt the quote was out of context and innacurate in the current environment. I stand by it - you are by all means welcome to disagree.

And stop watching so many Kali DVDs, you're buying the hype hook, line and sinker

sorry to be a pain in the ass...as usual I think I got stuck on semantics rather than trying to offer an actual objection...to clarify for myself...I guess...what I disagree with let me write this out...

1) yup...whole heartedly agree. Use of a knife in warfare is even vanishingly unlikely...unlikely to encounter knife crime in any case, unless you work in a kitchen or live in the UK...

2) This is the only point where I feel my opinion really veers away from yours. As a bystander of sorts at knife assaults, I feel based on my own experiences that at least a fair portion of knife assaults are more or less undefendable. I really, really don't want to believe this, but having the incidents I listed in my prior post play out, I can't help but feel that way...that either the knife isn't shown until it sticks, or it happens too fast to counter effectively.

3) Although it is sensationalized to a point as a marketing manuever by savvy martial artists, the lethality of edged weapons must not be understated. I'm still checking for the document that I saw a while ago that listed that there was a higher mortality rate amongst knife victims than those who suffered injuries due to firearms...which is what I've thus far based my beliefs on.

If anything, I think my ideas on this are 180 opposite many modern kali practitioners (not that I have the experience, knowledge, or skill to challenge any of their ideologies, I'll admit to my armchair martial philosophizing, but I doubt too many (barring a few individuals) of them have used a knife on another human being or defended against an impromtu knife assault...if I'm wrong on this, I'd love to hear their stories, as that type of inspirational material may change my opinion about #2.)

But...yeah...maybe too much martial media is rotting my brain a bit. Could be worse...I could be the dude on here that thought he was Jackie Chan.

in any case, just throwing out my 2 cents.

And as for a part of MasterKaliSilat's quote being potentially ill advised for the modern world...I am 100% with you on that one too... hell... one name, Isaias Umali. I don't know if you've read the Keating article I posted on the Umali case...but I think that it may mirror the exact same thing you are referring to with the Kali mentality.

**Michael Wright** · 07-01-2009, 08:52 AM

Thanks for the post, that’s much clearer now and I see where you are coming from.

A knife attack is a horrendous thing, and many who aren’t killed are seriously injured, often disabled for life. Please don’t think for a moment that I am playing that down in any way. 11 years ago someone I loved was knifed in a nightclub, she later passed away. I have more emotional fuel than most to fear the knife and thrive in a dark paranoia about knife deaths. However, I try to focus on success as opposed to failure. I already know that the vast majority of martial artists will tell you that a knife is undefendable and a no-win scenario, and I don’t believe that. If we are all going to be that defeatist then let’s just pack up the training gear and buy a tank.

The first step is having a realistic understanding of a knife attack, which you clearly do. Someone who has the real intent to stab you will do so before you probably know they are in the room, and usually the fight for your life starts from the first wound. The second step is having a holistic knife defence program that stands up to pressure and resistance. The reason most people in martial arts are so defeatist about the blade is because their knife defence is utter shit. I’ve seen so many systems that look great in a rehearsed scenario, but they fall to pieces as soon as you try it with a resisting, non-compliant training partner. If they fall to pieces in the gym with a training blade, they aint going to be any use in reality.

I’m not saying for one minute that I have it all figured out, I like anyone could get very unlucky one day and be on the receiving end of a vicious blade attack that I can’t stop, despite my best efforts. But all you can do, all any of us can do in the arts, is increase our chances of success. I believe you have a far higher chance of doing that if you approach things with a positive mentality, and aren’t drawn into the negativity and paranoia. Like the man said, if you think you can or you think you can’t – you’re right.

aseepish · 07-01-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

But all you can do, all any of us can do in the arts, is increase our chances of success. I believe you have a far higher chance of doing that if you approach things with a positive mentality, and aren’t drawn into the negativity and paranoia. Like the man said, if you think you can or you think you can’t – you’re right.

This gentleman could!

Former boxer Frank Corti defeated drunken burglar with a punch - Times Online

Former Boxer Frank Corti Defeated Drunken Burglar with a Punch
Sadie Gray

A pensioner “subdued” a drunken burglar by giving him a black eye and a bloody lip.

Frank Corti, 72, a former soldier, said that he had felt compelled to defend himself and his wife against his neighbour Gregory McCalium, who broke into his home in Botley, Oxford, armed with a knife.

McCalium was still drunk from an all-night party when he went into the Cortis’ house at 8am on August 19 last year. He threatened Mr Corti with a knife but the former featherweight boxer dodged it, punching McCalium twice in the face before pinning him to a wall.

McCalium, 24, was jailed for four and a half years on Monday after a jury at Oxford Crown Court found him guilty of aggravated burglary following a trial in March.

Mr Corti had told the court that the two men had an ongoing dispute over noise and that he had called the police out an hour and a half before the burglary after finding McCalium banging on the front door.

Mr Corti, a 5ft 5ins former Royal Engineer who served during the Suez crisis, said: “He was holding a knife which looked more like a six-bladed knuckle duster. He made a slashing movement at me but I dodged it by stepping back and he missed.

“As I saw it, it was a matter of do or die. Fortunately the element of surprise was with me, so I adjusted my position and hit him with my right hand. It was just below the eye.

“I did not knock him out, but he was stunned. I heard the knife drop. We grappled. I was trying to drag him out of the back door. We both fell to the floor. I had to subdue him by punching him, which I did not take a great deal of pleasure in.”

Detective Constable Jon Shaw, of Thames Valley Police, said: “This was a terrifying situation and McCalium must now pay for his actions.”

The Times, July 1, 2009

**Michael Wright** · 07-02-2009, 04:58 AM

You beat me to it!

I was reading about this on the tube this morning - great story

06-16-2009, 11:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
Garland Premiere Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,274 Groans: 1 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts	Does kunsi = kino mutai? __________________ homo homini lupus

06-16-2009, 11:48 AM	#17 (permalink)
Michael Wright Premiere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hertfordshire, UK Posts: 1,199 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post	Kunsi is the locking portion of the art, though its best not to get tied up in terminology as different systems and dialects vary greatly. __________________ MY GIRL CAN'T KICK OR GRAPPLE, BUT YOU SHOULD SEE HER BOX

06-16-2009, 11:56 AM	#18 (permalink)
Garland Premiere Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,274 Groans: 1 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts	So buying the Rosetta Stone for Tagalog won't even help? Oh well...I guess that'll save me some dough. __________________ homo homini lupus

06-30-2009, 03:53 AM	#21 (permalink)
Garland Premiere Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,274 Groans: 1 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts	Here's a site where I found some... Academy Of Jeet Kune Do Fighting Technology this page is in Greek, so translate it on your browser to get to the meat of the matter. __________________ homo homini lupus

06-30-2009, 06:11 AM	#22 (permalink)
MasterKaliSilat Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New York, NY - Florida Posts: 195 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts	Many systems, many similarities, and how much did you want? I only suggest one principle, "Can you stop me? Can I stop you? No matter what according to the experts in the Philippines at the home of Eskrima, Anis, Doce Pares follows the same rules. 1st Rule: There are no rules. 2nd Rule: Cheat. 3rd Rule, remember the first two rules! It doesn't matter what you practice, if you've done the many drills you cover all the ground. According to GM Dionisio Canete, "We have a drill for everything!" Once you've applied the training, the system doesn't matter, "Can you stop me?" It was from GM Canete that I realized I was in the real place for leaning about the Philippines Art & Science of Human Life, back in 1977 was my first visit to Cebu. Since then I've met many that said they know, but few could back it up. One guy actually insisted there's no footwork in Kali, I guess because he couldn't do it. Learn all you can learn, take the drills, the footwork, the method of striking, learn the mechanics of how you move, re-create how you do it! This most profound message is passed from the late Suryadi Jafri, RIP 1998, Pencak Silat, Lanka Empat. __________________ Regards, Greg Alland MasGuru@KaliSilat.org WORLDWIDE. CLASSES: Saturdays Bradenton, FL at G.T. Bray Park 51 Street West. Class: 8:am-11:am (646) 571-4182, Virginia Beach, VA. Saturdays at Hybrid Academy Davis & Va.Beach Blvd. NEW YORK CITY, Chinatown, 8:am Saturday & Sunday. PHILIPPINES TOUR & TRAINING Sept. 7th-21st, 2009 3 WEEKS with Masters & Grandmasters at University Philippines, & Cebu City's Doce Pares HOME OF ESKRIMA EMAIL 4 details http://KaliSilat.org search Greg Alland

06-29-2009, 09:47 PM	#20 (permalink)
Tim Brown Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I also would love to see whatever progressions for panantukan you have available!

06-30-2009, 06:25 AM	#23 (permalink)
MasterKaliSilat Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New York, NY - Florida Posts: 195 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts	One more link in this dubious knife defense thing. There is no defense against the knife, in WW2 they soldiers where shooting these Philippine Warriors, and they were still getting their heads chopped off. If the guy knows the knife, best not to be there. I have experienced so many individuals that CLAIM they can stop my knife. I proved to them they can't, as did many of the Doce Pares and many, many other Filipino systems. You need a knock down bullet, and plenty of room to shoot. Remember there are only 3 rules in a knife fight: 1) No rules. 2) Cheat. 3) Remember the first two rules. __________________ Regards, Greg Alland MasGuru@KaliSilat.org WORLDWIDE. CLASSES: Saturdays Bradenton, FL at G.T. Bray Park 51 Street West. Class: 8:am-11:am (646) 571-4182, Virginia Beach, VA. Saturdays at Hybrid Academy Davis & Va.Beach Blvd. NEW YORK CITY, Chinatown, 8:am Saturday & Sunday. PHILIPPINES TOUR & TRAINING Sept. 7th-21st, 2009 3 WEEKS with Masters & Grandmasters at University Philippines, & Cebu City's Doce Pares HOME OF ESKRIMA EMAIL 4 details http://KaliSilat.org search Greg Alland

06-30-2009, 03:40 PM	#25 (permalink)
Garland Premiere Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,274 Groans: 1 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts	I beg to differ with you Michael, based on these ideas, certainly I'm no expert, but these things influence my opinion...1) a knife, statistically, (at least in MY country) has a great deal more lethality than a firearm...and 2) you don't need to be a "knife master" in order to use it lethally, or to the point where it permanently disfigures and maims. And finally...3) in many instances only one party will know that a knife is involved until the incident has passed...I know this too well as I have TWICE had to clean up aquaintances or strangers who had been stuck in a hit and run manner. Nobody had even seen the stabbings occur, and the victims stated that they had simply felt like somebody punched them and ran off. (luckily for them, missing organs and arteries) {as an aside, I'll tell you it's easier to deal with somebody like this keeping calm and trying to avoid THEM from freaking out or going into shock without their insane and drug addled girlfriend screaming and yelling AT their wounded boyfriend on the way to the hospital FOR being stabbed. sheesh! Also...In retrospect, I shouldn't have wasted my nice scarf on this kid, but I'm a good Samaritan type.} Of course it is possible to stop a knife...but in many of the worst situations, it is unlikely. Really...I think it depends on the intentions of the individual with the knife, as well as the lucidity and skill of the person being attacked... If the individual's intention is to stab you from the onset...and they aren't haphazardly brandishing the weapon...I doubt most individuals would know they'd even been stabbed until they saw the blood...and the other person was halfway down the street. What is the phraze, "incidental if not accidental"? __________________ homo homini lupus

06-30-2009, 05:30 PM	#26 (permalink)
Michael Wright Premiere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hertfordshire, UK Posts: 1,199 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post	You've misrepresenting my post Garland into some kind of blanket statement where knives are not dangerous, which is not what I said. My points were in response to that quote specifically, they were simple and threefold: 1. 99.9% of normal people in modern society will never experience a knife fight in warfare against a kali master - that I stand by 100%. 2. The post claimed a knife cannot be stopped, I'm saying for a fact that they can and are, all the time. 3. The paranoia and drama around the lethal nature of all knife attacks is hyped and grossly exagerrated by martial artists. 6 out of every 7 people in the UK survive a knife attack, that is a statistical fact published by the Home Office. The the same statistics I quoted for the UK are freely available for the USA, and they are barely different. Contact your local Law Enforcement Agency, its a public document. I don't make throw away comments about knife or knife defence, its an area I take very seriously because I teach it to front line professionals. The point of my post was that I felt the quote was out of context and innacurate in the current environment. I stand by it - you are by all means welcome to disagree. And stop watching so many Kali DVDs, you're buying the hype hook, line and sinker __________________ MY GIRL CAN'T KICK OR GRAPPLE, BUT YOU SHOULD SEE HER BOX

07-01-2009, 08:52 AM	#28 (permalink)
Michael Wright Premiere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hertfordshire, UK Posts: 1,199 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post	Thanks for the post, that’s much clearer now and I see where you are coming from. A knife attack is a horrendous thing, and many who aren’t killed are seriously injured, often disabled for life. Please don’t think for a moment that I am playing that down in any way. 11 years ago someone I loved was knifed in a nightclub, she later passed away. I have more emotional fuel than most to fear the knife and thrive in a dark paranoia about knife deaths. However, I try to focus on success as opposed to failure. I already know that the vast majority of martial artists will tell you that a knife is undefendable and a no-win scenario, and I don’t believe that. If we are all going to be that defeatist then let’s just pack up the training gear and buy a tank. The first step is having a realistic understanding of a knife attack, which you clearly do. Someone who has the real intent to stab you will do so before you probably know they are in the room, and usually the fight for your life starts from the first wound. The second step is having a holistic knife defence program that stands up to pressure and resistance. The reason most people in martial arts are so defeatist about the blade is because their knife defence is utter shit. I’ve seen so many systems that look great in a rehearsed scenario, but they fall to pieces as soon as you try it with a resisting, non-compliant training partner. If they fall to pieces in the gym with a training blade, they aint going to be any use in reality. I’m not saying for one minute that I have it all figured out, I like anyone could get very unlucky one day and be on the receiving end of a vicious blade attack that I can’t stop, despite my best efforts. But all you can do, all any of us can do in the arts, is increase our chances of success. I believe you have a far higher chance of doing that if you approach things with a positive mentality, and aren’t drawn into the negativity and paranoia. Like the man said, if you think you can or you think you can’t – you’re right. __________________ MY GIRL CAN'T KICK OR GRAPPLE, BUT YOU SHOULD SEE HER BOX

07-02-2009, 04:58 AM	#30 (permalink)
Michael Wright Premiere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hertfordshire, UK Posts: 1,199 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post	You beat me to it! I was reading about this on the tube this morning - great story __________________ MY GIRL CAN'T KICK OR GRAPPLE, BUT YOU SHOULD SEE HER BOX

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