Realistic Knife Training (your Perspective Please?-tnx)

lionleo · 04-17-2008, 12:24 PM

Just want to get opinions in what your experience in realistic knife training are..what you currentlly use..and what you prefer?

When "Mandirigmang Kaliradman" (the Davao city LESKAS/LSAI under PG Nols) was started back in 98..PG Nols trained me particulary in agressive knife attack situations (I agree that realistic is relative), but somehow using my own combat hunting knife to attack me...helped in the realistic mindset that a bladed instrument could not be taken lightly....currentlly i am using training folders for training my students as well as sharkees for starters..i prefer to just jump and use the live blades...but an wary about the legalities here in the US.....

How bout You?

check the knife that guro nols is using

DonKey · 04-17-2008, 07:55 PM

I don't think the legalities are a problem as long as you're both mature adults and realize the risks that accompany training a live blade. Most schools make the student sign a waiver at the beginning of any kind of training.

BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, Western Boxing and now FMA all had me sign something before I started. I wouldn't think of holding anyone but myself responsible for past or future training injuries.

Both the student and the teacher need to make the decision together as to when the student is ready to step it up.

Mike Brewer · 04-17-2008, 08:11 PM

Check out the "Morality and Weapons" thread for some insights into people's attitudes. As for the legalities, I can tell you that no waiver will ever hold up in court. They project that image and some instructors insist that their waivers are bulletproof, but no one can sign a contract that violates their rights - including the right to pursue you in court over cases of irresponsibility and/or neglect. And it's not terribly difficult to show that someone teaching people how to injure and kill others with a knife is being neglectful or irresponsible - especially in the eyes of an uneducated jury.

Just be careful.

Michael Wright · 04-18-2008, 04:11 AM

Realistic knife training is all about intent. In my experience if you train with live blades you will immediately and significantly reduce the intent in your training, which is the worst thing you can do.

Both you and your training partner will instinctively pull back on your techniques and your focus will be on not touching your partner with a blade, rather than trying with full intent to touch with a training blade. Where is the benefit in that? Its like introducing live rounds onto a film set, it won't make the slightest difference to the end result, but its probably going to get someone killed.

If you want to inject some safe and minor pain reaction into your training, try sparring with lit joss sticks, you sure know when you've been hit but you go home safe. There are also a range of quality products like the blades that administer small electric shocks upon impact, or leave a clear ink stain at the point of the cut. I have used these with Police and Military and they have always gone down very well.

Just some thoughts.

ShawnJKD · 04-18-2008, 07:53 AM

I would love to get one of those shock knives for class.

The intent idea is key, but some fear of the blade needs to be explored at some point. I've done very little live blade training but the first time I did was also the first time I'd ever experienced the stress effect of tunnel vision - edges of my vision went black and my awareness became centered on that sharp piece of metal against my skin, AND that was with someone I knew and trusted. Up until that point (no pun intended) I thought I was fairly comfortable dealing with a blade. If for nothing else that experience was worth spending a little live time.

I think a shock blade would bring some of that fear without the risk of actually killing a student :-)

Michael Wright · 04-18-2008, 08:03 AM

Thats interesting that it affected you like that Shawn, its good to get a different perspective on it.

You know its funny, the first time I did live blade work I took it far less seriously and there was no fear or adrenal reaction, because I knew the guy holding it had absolutely no intention of putting it within 6 inches of my flesh. However things can go wrong, so I appreciate why you had that apprehension, and it sounds like it was a worthwhile experience for you.

I try to put myself in that mindset every time I face a determined attacker with training blade, good imagination and his firm intent work better for me.

(And yes, for the record by the way, I still think you are a smart guy!)

ShawnJKD · 04-18-2008, 08:40 AM

We were working a hostage type situation with the blade held against the throat from behind. The adrenal stress reaction didn't happen until the blade actually made contact with my flesh. Until the moment of contact I was only slightly nervous about the whole thing. My instructor at that time was a little odd and although I was absolutely sure he wouldn't try and kill me, I wasn't so sure he wouldn't cut me.

*bows* thanks Michael

Michael Wright · 04-18-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnJKD

My instructor at that time was a little odd

You're not kidding, thats very dangerous, if not completely irresponsible.

You know, I care about my training a lot, but not enough to let someone put a live blade to my throat. Its all down to a question of what you think is a rational line to draw, in your preparation for something that is extremely unlikely to ever occur in your life.

Give me a training blade, a good training partner, and a few beers afterwards. That'll do me.

ShawnJKD · 04-18-2008, 09:21 AM

I'm not suggesting I would do it in class myself, or that it was a good idea...just relating the experience and what I took away from it.

Michael Wright · 04-18-2008, 09:22 AM

I know sir, and my response was intended in that context.

ShawnJKD · 04-18-2008, 09:41 AM

An idea would be something that my current instructor experienced. It would be something you could only do once with a student and when it happened with my instructor it was unintentional. He was training with a "name" guy in FMA and they were doing a tapi tapi drill. The FMA guy pulled out a custom made blade with a carved hilt, very fancy and deadly looking. My instructor was surprised by the live blade but continued the drill and says he did it the best he ever has because he was so aware of the possibility of being cut. Only afterwards did he realize the custom blade was actually a dull trainer.

Mike Brewer · 04-18-2008, 09:55 AM

Michael, here's something you might relate to. In 2000 at the Inosanto Academy Instructor Conference, Paula was looking over my knife work telling me what I needed to improve. She could have saved herself a great deal of time had she just listed what I was doing right.

Anyway, she wanted to demonstrate, so she handed Joel and someone else (I just can't remember) live bayonets and started working against both of them at the same time. They weren't ultra sharp, but from time to time, she'd break eye contact and look over at me to explain something while she was avoiding two knives at once. They were not coming after her in any pattern I recognized, and they were moving at somewhere north of 75% speed. When she'd finished her talk, she played around with them for a few more minutes, and Guro Dan got visibly agitated. He kept saying, "God, Paula, I wish you'd use the training blades." He got uncomfortable and actually walked off into his office so he didn't have to watch. Apparently, that's what she was waiting for, because she casually disarmed them both and the show was over.

She told me I needed to work on my knife stuff, and so I did - hard. I went home and trained the beejeezus out of it. I noticed a really interesting phenomenon, too. I was doing live blade with my senior students privately, and we all got to be fairly competent in a matter of several months. However, when we put it back into context with others who had not done live blade, the caution and "fear" of the live blade made the advanced guys hesitate, and they started getting hacked up by beginners. They were getting even, mind you, but the first cut (the important one in a real fight, right?) almost always went to the beginners who didn't know any better and had no fear of the tool. I thought it was interesting to see that.

Like many things, part of the process of training for effectiveness is a desensitization to the fears and concerns that come with a stressful thing. There've been many books written on the necessity of desensitizing soldiers to the idea of killing (cue someone to recommend Grossman) and I think it happens that way with blades, too. People who train with dull weapons tend to not think it through as much as they might. That casual attitude is dangerous, but one thing it definitely does is facilitate action. When there's no concern, there's no hesitance to act. When someone has a healthy fear, it has to be overcome or repressed before he'll act. In that respect, there might be something to the notion of letting people assume they're bullet-proof. At least from one particular point of view.

ShawnJKD · 04-18-2008, 11:41 AM

Would have liked to have seen that. In the video clips I've seen of Paula she always seems so brutal (and I mean that in the best way), much "meaner" than Guro Inosanto.

danjuandesiga · 04-18-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnJKD

Would have liked to have seen that. In the video clips I've seen of Paula she always seems so brutal (and I mean that in the best way), much "meaner" than Guro Inosanto.

Haha you're right bro. She shows NO MERCY when she's demonstrating knife moves on Guro Dan. Those Lameco forearm guards really work. Guro Dan has proven that!

lionleo · 04-19-2008, 01:42 PM

I d appreciate all the input from this thread...

When we trained live blades in Davao..the intent to hit was there as well as the actual live blades ...tunnel vison and an uncontrolled reaction to adrenalin rush is always the factor that would determine the outcome of any eventualities..as far as my experience have dictated....training with actual live blades have saved me from injury manay a times...the input of making this training safer is very much appreciated..the sharkee with lipstick on it is a good one...we'll try it soon..more thoughts and input will be much more appreciated...

Mabuhay sa inyong lahat..

04-17-2008, 12:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
lionleo Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sugarland Posts: 195	Realistic Knife Training (your Perspective Please?-tnx) Just want to get opinions in what your experience in realistic knife training are..what you currentlly use..and what you prefer? When "Mandirigmang Kaliradman" (the Davao city LESKAS/LSAI under PG Nols) was started back in 98..PG Nols trained me particulary in agressive knife attack situations (I agree that realistic is relative), but somehow using my own combat hunting knife to attack me...helped in the realistic mindset that a bladed instrument could not be taken lightly....currentlly i am using training folders for training my students as well as sharkees for starters..i prefer to just jump and use the live blades...but an wary about the legalities here in the US..... How bout You? check the knife that guro nols is using __________________ http://kidlatarnis.tripod.com www.youtube.com/kalikilat

04-18-2008, 07:53 AM	#5 (permalink)
ShawnJKD Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64	I would love to get one of those shock knives for class. The intent idea is key, but some fear of the blade needs to be explored at some point. I've done very little live blade training but the first time I did was also the first time I'd ever experienced the stress effect of tunnel vision - edges of my vision went black and my awareness became centered on that sharp piece of metal against my skin, AND that was with someone I knew and trusted. Up until that point (no pun intended) I thought I was fairly comfortable dealing with a blade. If for nothing else that experience was worth spending a little live time. I think a shock blade would bring some of that fear without the risk of actually killing a student :-) __________________ Trinity Martial Arts www.trinityjunfan.com

04-18-2008, 08:40 AM	#7 (permalink)
ShawnJKD Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64	We were working a hostage type situation with the blade held against the throat from behind. The adrenal stress reaction didn't happen until the blade actually made contact with my flesh. Until the moment of contact I was only slightly nervous about the whole thing. My instructor at that time was a little odd and although I was absolutely sure he wouldn't try and kill me, I wasn't so sure he wouldn't cut me. bows thanks Michael __________________ Trinity Martial Arts www.trinityjunfan.com

04-18-2008, 09:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
ShawnJKD Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64	I'm not suggesting I would do it in class myself, or that it was a good idea...just relating the experience and what I took away from it. __________________ Trinity Martial Arts www.trinityjunfan.com

04-18-2008, 09:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
ShawnJKD Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64	An idea would be something that my current instructor experienced. It would be something you could only do once with a student and when it happened with my instructor it was unintentional. He was training with a "name" guy in FMA and they were doing a tapi tapi drill. The FMA guy pulled out a custom made blade with a carved hilt, very fancy and deadly looking. My instructor was surprised by the live blade but continued the drill and says he did it the best he ever has because he was so aware of the possibility of being cut. Only afterwards did he realize the custom blade was actually a dull trainer. __________________ Trinity Martial Arts www.trinityjunfan.com

04-17-2008, 07:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
DonKey Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 39	I don't think the legalities are a problem as long as you're both mature adults and realize the risks that accompany training a live blade. Most schools make the student sign a waiver at the beginning of any kind of training. BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, Western Boxing and now FMA all had me sign something before I started. I wouldn't think of holding anyone but myself responsible for past or future training injuries. Both the student and the teacher need to make the decision together as to when the student is ready to step it up.

04-17-2008, 08:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mike Brewer Moderate Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,080	Check out the "Morality and Weapons" thread for some insights into people's attitudes. As for the legalities, I can tell you that no waiver will ever hold up in court. They project that image and some instructors insist that their waivers are bulletproof, but no one can sign a contract that violates their rights - including the right to pursue you in court over cases of irresponsibility and/or neglect. And it's not terribly difficult to show that someone teaching people how to injure and kill others with a knife is being neglectful or irresponsible - especially in the eyes of an uneducated jury. Just be careful.

04-18-2008, 04:11 AM	#4 (permalink)
Michael Wright Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 890	Realistic knife training is all about intent. In my experience if you train with live blades you will immediately and significantly reduce the intent in your training, which is the worst thing you can do. Both you and your training partner will instinctively pull back on your techniques and your focus will be on not touching your partner with a blade, rather than trying with full intent to touch with a training blade. Where is the benefit in that? Its like introducing live rounds onto a film set, it won't make the slightest difference to the end result, but its probably going to get someone killed. If you want to inject some safe and minor pain reaction into your training, try sparring with lit joss sticks, you sure know when you've been hit but you go home safe. There are also a range of quality products like the blades that administer small electric shocks upon impact, or leave a clear ink stain at the point of the cut. I have used these with Police and Military and they have always gone down very well. Just some thoughts.

04-18-2008, 08:03 AM	#6 (permalink)
Michael Wright Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 890	Thats interesting that it affected you like that Shawn, its good to get a different perspective on it. You know its funny, the first time I did live blade work I took it far less seriously and there was no fear or adrenal reaction, because I knew the guy holding it had absolutely no intention of putting it within 6 inches of my flesh. However things can go wrong, so I appreciate why you had that apprehension, and it sounds like it was a worthwhile experience for you. I try to put myself in that mindset every time I face a determined attacker with training blade, good imagination and his firm intent work better for me. (And yes, for the record by the way, I still think you are a smart guy!)

04-18-2008, 09:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
Michael Wright Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 890	I know sir, and my response was intended in that context.

04-18-2008, 09:55 AM	#12 (permalink)
Mike Brewer Moderate Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,080	Michael, here's something you might relate to. In 2000 at the Inosanto Academy Instructor Conference, Paula was looking over my knife work telling me what I needed to improve. She could have saved herself a great deal of time had she just listed what I was doing right. Anyway, she wanted to demonstrate, so she handed Joel and someone else (I just can't remember) live bayonets and started working against both of them at the same time. They weren't ultra sharp, but from time to time, she'd break eye contact and look over at me to explain something while she was avoiding two knives at once. They were not coming after her in any pattern I recognized, and they were moving at somewhere north of 75% speed. When she'd finished her talk, she played around with them for a few more minutes, and Guro Dan got visibly agitated. He kept saying, "God, Paula, I wish you'd use the training blades." He got uncomfortable and actually walked off into his office so he didn't have to watch. Apparently, that's what she was waiting for, because she casually disarmed them both and the show was over. She told me I needed to work on my knife stuff, and so I did - hard. I went home and trained the beejeezus out of it. I noticed a really interesting phenomenon, too. I was doing live blade with my senior students privately, and we all got to be fairly competent in a matter of several months. However, when we put it back into context with others who had not done live blade, the caution and "fear" of the live blade made the advanced guys hesitate, and they started getting hacked up by beginners. They were getting even, mind you, but the first cut (the important one in a real fight, right?) almost always went to the beginners who didn't know any better and had no fear of the tool. I thought it was interesting to see that. Like many things, part of the process of training for effectiveness is a desensitization to the fears and concerns that come with a stressful thing. There've been many books written on the necessity of desensitizing soldiers to the idea of killing (cue someone to recommend Grossman) and I think it happens that way with blades, too. People who train with dull weapons tend to not think it through as much as they might. That casual attitude is dangerous, but one thing it definitely does is facilitate action. When there's no concern, there's no hesitance to act. When someone has a healthy fear, it has to be overcome or repressed before he'll act. In that respect, there might be something to the notion of letting people assume they're bullet-proof. At least from one particular point of view.

04-18-2008, 11:41 AM	#13 (permalink)
ShawnJKD Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64	Would have liked to have seen that. In the video clips I've seen of Paula she always seems so brutal (and I mean that in the best way), much "meaner" than Guro Inosanto. __________________ Trinity Martial Arts www.trinityjunfan.com

04-19-2008, 01:42 PM	#15 (permalink)
lionleo Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sugarland Posts: 195	I d appreciate all the input from this thread... When we trained live blades in Davao..the intent to hit was there as well as the actual live blades ...tunnel vison and an uncontrolled reaction to adrenalin rush is always the factor that would determine the outcome of any eventualities..as far as my experience have dictated....training with actual live blades have saved me from injury manay a times...the input of making this training safer is very much appreciated..the sharkee with lipstick on it is a good one...we'll try it soon..more thoughts and input will be much more appreciated... Mabuhay sa inyong lahat.. __________________ http://kidlatarnis.tripod.com www.youtube.com/kalikilat

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Gotta love realistic knife training!	Mike Brewer	Filipino Martial Arts	16	04-14-2008 02:48 PM
9/11 a different perspective	IPON	Open Access	66	04-28-2007 05:34 AM
Realistic Blade Training	Mike Brewer	Filipino Martial Arts	42	11-21-2006 03:25 PM
Realistic Training Videos	foolsknight362	Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) & BJJ Forum	6	02-28-2003 02:19 PM
Realistic Training in Central Florida?	BirdofPrey	Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) & BJJ Forum	0	07-27-2001 07:58 PM