slice vs. brace

jonhutton · 10-19-2000, 05:18 PM

The people I train with and I have been having a debate over the use of the slice block vs. the brace block. The main idea being that whenever we see the real haymaker strikes being thrown the slice block is just not something we can get to work in an effective way for defense. Adding in the concept of taking the angle and footwork it just doesn't seem to be the tool to use in a full contact match. Perhaps it is being used in the wrong way but in practice when one person hits full power and the other tries to slice block and evade inside the strike it won't play. Any comments/suggestions/areas in which to look for a answer would be appreciated

sikal · 10-19-2000, 08:00 PM

By "slice block" I am guessing you are referring to a "deflection" (i.e.: you sweep across in a tangential line to the attack?)

If this is what you're referring to, then I personally prefer it to a standard block. A block is direct force against force. Therefore, the stronger force wins ... period. If the guy swinging at you is considerably stronger or larger, your chances of fully blocking him are slim.

If only given the choice of a deflection or a block, I'll take a deflection any day. When done correctly, it takes a lot of power out of their strike. The most visible proof of this that I have personally done was to have a friend swing at me with a baseball bat. A block was not viable ... the bat would have blasted right through my little rattan stick. My deflection, however, negated a lot of the force of his attack. I wound up with a nice bruise on my ribs ... but had I blocked I am certain I would have had something broken. I have absolute faith in the deflection ... but it's not always the *best* answer, nor is it always a viable option.

I have only fought in one stickfighting tourney and I found myself parrying/evading more often than anything else. I would zone out on the male triangle, parry his shot (he kept throwing angle 1's), then, I would "ride" his arm back and crack him in the head with my stick.

My experience, though, is limited. This is just what I have found.

Regards, Mike

quietanswer · 10-20-2000, 05:01 PM

I agree with sikal totally, but with a slight adjustment..

I don't use a "force block" against a haymaker, not with my forearm anyway...

I reach in and stop-hit the shoulder of the attacking arm. If I'm not close enough to hit the shoulder, I hit his bicep. It's not totally a "hit" as I'm using my palm to check the attack.. this lends itself to an armlock/throw follow up.

Do you know hubud? In hubud, your initial defense is to block the incoming 1 angle, then you do the push-pat to clear it. I found while doing hubud that if instead of just holding my forearm in the air, in a perpendicular angle to the incoming strike, I could "reach in" with the arm and often time stop the attack at the shoulder. If I couldn't reach the shoulder/missed the shoulder, I still stop the incoming blow with the standard forearm block. This kind of reaching-in seems to work well as it's angle isn't so force-against-force in a blocking situation.

does that make sense?

sikal · 10-20-2000, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quietanswer
I agree with sikal totally, but with a slight adjustment..

I don't use a "force block" against a haymaker, not with my forearm anyway...

I reach in and stop-hit the shoulder of the attacking arm. If I'm not close enough to hit the shoulder, I hit his bicep. It's not totally a "hit" as I'm using my palm to check the attack.. this lends itself to an armlock/throw follow up.

Do you know hubud? In hubud, your initial defense is to block the incoming 1 angle, then you do the push-pat to clear it. I found while doing hubud that if instead of just holding my forearm in the air, in a perpendicular angle to the incoming strike, I could "reach in" with the arm and often time stop the attack at the shoulder. If I couldn't reach the shoulder/missed the shoulder, I still stop the incoming blow with the standard forearm block. This kind of reaching-in seems to work well as it's angle isn't so force-against-force in a blocking situation.

does that make sense?

Absolutely. "Attack the attack." :-) You and I are definitely on the same page.

Regards, Mike

jonhutton · 10-20-2000, 07:20 PM

I understand what you are saying and as an offensive/defensive concept it is sound, I guess that I am going through in full contact stick fighting with just mask/gloves. We are trying something new with this because most of our encounters seem to end up(quickly!) in the grappling range/on the ground. We didn't feel we were developing our skills at continuous attack in the long/medium ranges as much as possible. So to work this area we are trying to fight in only the medium to long ranges, moving in and out of them without going to the very close stick grappling range. This thread may may just stem from the fact that I am really pretty much a beginner at the stick fighting game (full contact) and don't have enough experience yet force on force to pull it off. I just can't seem to find a place where the deflection/slice block is the answer to a full power strike from the side.

quietanswer · 10-23-2000, 03:49 PM

well, keep in mind that when you are doing the inside deflection, that the footwork is very important. You have to step to the inside at a 45 degree angle, angling your body so that you can strike ACROSS the angle of the incoming blow. (if you are close enough/step deep enough, you can ram his sternum with your shoulder quite forcefully, possibly negating the strike right there.. i've only done this twice in sparring though..one of the times i did it I knocked him over his heels and on his ass..possibly only because of greater experience, possibly because it's a good technique). With sticks, this ensures no force on force at all, simply wacking the incoming strike to the side.. this works great as physics says the faster an object is moving forward, the easier it becomes to shove it to the side..

with a hook, this means grabbing the bicep/shoulder, which are at 90 degree angles to the direction of the incoming hook, still working with this theory of physics. not only that, but you are grabbing the lever (his arm) closer to it's fulcrum (his shoulder) which means you contest with far less leverage energy than if you stopped him at the forearm/fist level.

be sure you are stepping in when you stop the hook, or at least angling for it..

maybe the boxers will disagree, and if they do, they are probably right..

but this is my understanding of what i've been doing.

[Edited by quietanswer on 10-23-2000 at 11:58 AM]

quietanswer · 10-23-2000, 03:55 PM

you say you're having trouble staying at long/medium range and exchanging blows.. well, my fight partner and I have found that figure 8's will really help you there. do you know the five standard figure 8 patterns? maybe there ar emore, though this is all I was taught..

I've found that figure 8's are really useful.. maybe that's common knowledge, but it was a discovery for me. If you set up your first strike planning on continuing with a second strike, figure 8 style, and permitting the energy to build to a third, fourth and fifth (you can change the shape/angle of the figure 8 from blow to blow).. that your stick frequently just FINDS his attack.. you're already in motion, and it's just a matter of fine tuning the timing when you see his counterattack coming in at you.. We've endeed up with some really interesting exchanges after finding this out.. It's almost as if I defend against his blows before I really saw anything to defend against. If you were taught the figure 8 sequence within siniwalli, I really suggest practicing it some and then looking for the application within your stick sparring.

also, at medium range, don't forget the beauty of your abanikos.. the usage of abanikos reminds me of trapping in wing chun, to some extent.

maybe this is already basic knowledge for you, but if not, it might help you and he with your medium/long range stuff.. hope so..if what i'm saying isn't clear, let me know

10-20-2000, 05:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	haymaker defense I agree with sikal totally, but with a slight adjustment.. I don't use a "force block" against a haymaker, not with my forearm anyway... I reach in and stop-hit the shoulder of the attacking arm. If I'm not close enough to hit the shoulder, I hit his bicep. It's not totally a "hit" as I'm using my palm to check the attack.. this lends itself to an armlock/throw follow up. Do you know hubud? In hubud, your initial defense is to block the incoming 1 angle, then you do the push-pat to clear it. I found while doing hubud that if instead of just holding my forearm in the air, in a perpendicular angle to the incoming strike, I could "reach in" with the arm and often time stop the attack at the shoulder. If I couldn't reach the shoulder/missed the shoulder, I still stop the incoming blow with the standard forearm block. This kind of reaching-in seems to work well as it's angle isn't so force-against-force in a blocking situation. does that make sense? __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-23-2000, 03:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	inside deflection footwork well, keep in mind that when you are doing the inside deflection, that the footwork is very important. You have to step to the inside at a 45 degree angle, angling your body so that you can strike ACROSS the angle of the incoming blow. (if you are close enough/step deep enough, you can ram his sternum with your shoulder quite forcefully, possibly negating the strike right there.. i've only done this twice in sparring though..one of the times i did it I knocked him over his heels and on his ass..possibly only because of greater experience, possibly because it's a good technique). With sticks, this ensures no force on force at all, simply wacking the incoming strike to the side.. this works great as physics says the faster an object is moving forward, the easier it becomes to shove it to the side.. with a hook, this means grabbing the bicep/shoulder, which are at 90 degree angles to the direction of the incoming hook, still working with this theory of physics. not only that, but you are grabbing the lever (his arm) closer to it's fulcrum (his shoulder) which means you contest with far less leverage energy than if you stopped him at the forearm/fist level. be sure you are stepping in when you stop the hook, or at least angling for it.. maybe the boxers will disagree, and if they do, they are probably right.. but this is my understanding of what i've been doing. [Edited by quietanswer on 10-23-2000 at 11:58 AM] __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-23-2000, 03:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377	one more point you say you're having trouble staying at long/medium range and exchanging blows.. well, my fight partner and I have found that figure 8's will really help you there. do you know the five standard figure 8 patterns? maybe there ar emore, though this is all I was taught.. I've found that figure 8's are really useful.. maybe that's common knowledge, but it was a discovery for me. If you set up your first strike planning on continuing with a second strike, figure 8 style, and permitting the energy to build to a third, fourth and fifth (you can change the shape/angle of the figure 8 from blow to blow).. that your stick frequently just FINDS his attack.. you're already in motion, and it's just a matter of fine tuning the timing when you see his counterattack coming in at you.. We've endeed up with some really interesting exchanges after finding this out.. It's almost as if I defend against his blows before I really saw anything to defend against. If you were taught the figure 8 sequence within siniwalli, I really suggest practicing it some and then looking for the application within your stick sparring. also, at medium range, don't forget the beauty of your abanikos.. the usage of abanikos reminds me of trapping in wing chun, to some extent. maybe this is already basic knowledge for you, but if not, it might help you and he with your medium/long range stuff.. hope so..if what i'm saying isn't clear, let me know __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

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10-19-2000, 05:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
jonhutton Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Warsaw IN Posts: 25	The people I train with and I have been having a debate over the use of the slice block vs. the brace block. The main idea being that whenever we see the real haymaker strikes being thrown the slice block is just not something we can get to work in an effective way for defense. Adding in the concept of taking the angle and footwork it just doesn't seem to be the tool to use in a full contact match. Perhaps it is being used in the wrong way but in practice when one person hits full power and the other tries to slice block and evade inside the strike it won't play. Any comments/suggestions/areas in which to look for a answer would be appreciated

10-19-2000, 08:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
sikal Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 480	By "slice block" I am guessing you are referring to a "deflection" (i.e.: you sweep across in a tangential line to the attack?) If this is what you're referring to, then I personally prefer it to a standard block. A block is direct force against force. Therefore, the stronger force wins ... period. If the guy swinging at you is considerably stronger or larger, your chances of fully blocking him are slim. If only given the choice of a deflection or a block, I'll take a deflection any day. When done correctly, it takes a lot of power out of their strike. The most visible proof of this that I have personally done was to have a friend swing at me with a baseball bat. A block was not viable ... the bat would have blasted right through my little rattan stick. My deflection, however, negated a lot of the force of his attack. I wound up with a nice bruise on my ribs ... but had I blocked I am certain I would have had something broken. I have absolute faith in the deflection ... but it's not always the best answer, nor is it always a viable option. I have only fought in one stickfighting tourney and I found myself parrying/evading more often than anything else. I would zone out on the male triangle, parry his shot (he kept throwing angle 1's), then, I would "ride" his arm back and crack him in the head with my stick. My experience, though, is limited. This is just what I have found. Regards, Mike

10-20-2000, 07:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
jonhutton Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Warsaw IN Posts: 25	I understand what you are saying and as an offensive/defensive concept it is sound, I guess that I am going through in full contact stick fighting with just mask/gloves. We are trying something new with this because most of our encounters seem to end up(quickly!) in the grappling range/on the ground. We didn't feel we were developing our skills at continuous attack in the long/medium ranges as much as possible. So to work this area we are trying to fight in only the medium to long ranges, moving in and out of them without going to the very close stick grappling range. This thread may may just stem from the fact that I am really pretty much a beginner at the stick fighting game (full contact) and don't have enough experience yet force on force to pull it off. I just can't seem to find a place where the deflection/slice block is the answer to a full power strike from the side.

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