The Ultimate in Martial Arts

quietanswer · 10-23-2000, 05:24 PM

I may have asked this before, but don't recall what kind of (or if i got an) answer came back..

Out of curiosity, what kind of injuries do you full contact guys suffer...

what are the most common levels of injuries..

and what are the extremes that have occurred?

I've suffered some pain just from our semi padded weapons..they leave me some funky colored raised bruises and some large, knot like welts..black eyes, busted lips and gums even.. and I'm curious if I'd really suffer so much more by raising the contact level once more.. I saw on a dog brothers picture a guy is quoted as saying "it feels like sunburn" and i'd have to say that's my experience too.. what kind of pain and injuries do you guys get? you ever missed work due to them? you lose your ability to type or click a mouse, ever? wake up with the "knocked out so I have a hangover now" feeling I used to get boxing?

really, some details would be appreciated, if you got the time..

10-23-2000, 09:55 PM

Hey there,

Get some softsticks. I don't care what anybody says, they are the answer to a lot of problems.
No deformed fingers - No head injuries. Just good skill work with minimal risk..

I get enough injuries in submission training to want some stick injuries too.

quietanswer · 10-23-2000, 10:30 PM

I do have home made semi-padded weapons, and would be happy to tell you how I make them if you're interested. they are of a basic and common design, but with a few details that seem to make them work much better.

I agree with you that the padded weapons DO seem to keep from being mutilated, and allow for highly repetitive semi-realistic practice.

I was curious, though, what our full contact fighters go through when they get hit by the rattan.. I'd like to know in case i can bump into the higher standard.. just as much, I'd like to know just so i Have a realistic idea of what my sticks will do to some poor bastard if i'm ever lucky enough to have a pair (of sticks, not the bozack) on me when mr. ugly comes hunting.

thanks though

Stuart S. Igarta · 10-23-2000, 10:56 PM

Hey Dwayne, the most serious injury I've had was having the skin over my shin break open, small holes and now ugly scars. I know others have gotten fractured bones in their hands. Overall, nothing very serious.

Don't go with the sofstxs because the level of realism will diminish.

quietanswer · 10-24-2000, 07:23 PM

hm.. thats cool, stuart. out of curiosity, are any of you guys who train full contact really small boned? I am, and sometimes I hate the thought of maybe, getting my forearm broke (not to be a pansy

).. some guys have bones like a cow..and i'd imagine they can take some shots..

are the sofsticks extremely soft? no bruises or welts whatsoever? that WOULD seem really detrimental, as some kind of pain is necessary.

just curious.

[Edited by quietanswer on 10-24-2000 at 02:26 PM]

Stuart S. Igarta · 10-24-2000, 09:26 PM

Quote:

hm.. thats cool, stuart. out of curiosity, are any of you guys who train full contact really small boned? I am, and sometimes I hate the thought of maybe, getting my forearm broke (not to be a pansy ).. some guys have bones like a cow..and i'd imagine they can take some shots...

Dwayne, there were a few guys over 6" who weigh under 160 - 170, I don't know if they would be considered small boned but I consider them tall and thin. I'm 5'8" and weigh 185 so I don't think I fit in that category. I've seen and been hit with really hard shots on the arm and have yet to see a broken forearm.

Quote:

are the sofsticks extremely soft? no bruises or welts whatsoever? that WOULD seem really detrimental, as some kind of pain is necessary.

The sofstxs aren't that bad. You'll feel pain but the fear factor is taken away because you know you can't get hurt, I think this is important because you'll be tighter, faster, more mobile, less foolish, etc. in your footwork and stickwork. Just my 2 cents worth.

quietanswer · 10-24-2000, 09:44 PM

right on, stuart. I appreciate the info. those tall guys are probably about as wiry as I (5'9 and 135.. 138 with a hard on..woohoo!), so maybe I'm safe..we are currently using padded weapons.. the problem is finding a guy who will go full contact with me with rattan.. hm..

maybe i'll hand my training partner a rattan stick to attack me with, while i use the soft stick on him..that way i'd get the benefit, at least.. hm...

Chad W. Getz · 10-25-2000, 10:59 AM

Can you imagine fighting using a real rattan against someone with a softstx. I think the guy with the soft-stx would get thrashed. We did soft-stx long stick vs knife once, and the guy with the knife got slapped around pretty bad. You also just wind up standing so close to each other with the soft-stx because "lack of motivation to be realistic". Especially for knife sparring, which is why we use the alluminum daggers now with only the padded nike football gloves or batting glove for now. Believe me the aluminum daggers hurt on hand shots when you are just wearing a baseball gloves. I mean sure, you wind up standing a little too close, because you know this doesn't hurt like a stick, plus you guys are using small motions cuz it's a knife. But it hurts enough that you don't want to get hit by it. James caught me with a solid backhand power-speed shot on my inner forearm, left hand while I tried to tap him, and it is sore today man.

quietanswer · 10-25-2000, 06:11 PM

I may get thrashed, but it's the best way I can incorporate the realism of the pain, if he doesn't want to be beat with rattan himself.. (shrug)

however, I'm not going to start doing that tomorrow..it's just an idea if nothing else presents itself..

K Williams · 10-26-2000, 05:34 AM

I haven't fought Dog Brothers style yet, only WEKAF rules(helmet, gloves, elbow pads, chest armor, rattan sticks) and fighting with padded sticks with only helmets or helmets & gloves. So far, the worst injury was a thrown(blown out...whatever is the correct term) shoulder. I couldn't do much with my right arm for a while. I've gotten the usual small cuts & bruises, a black fingernail, a broken knuckle(from stick drills) made worse in a session of stick sparring, and skin torn off my knuckle from contact with a WEKAF helmet. That's about it.

Dit Da Jow has come in real handy for the bruises and sore hands.

[Edited by K Williams on 10-26-2000 at 11:05 PM]

quietanswer · 10-26-2000, 02:59 PM

I hear more and more about this herbal rub.. i originally wrote it off as "for suckers" (especially with the price tag i frequently see on it)but the more I hear people reference it, the more I wonder..

what do you use it for (rubbing bruises, right?) and how, and what kind of results..does it halve your healing time? does it relieve the pain? does it smell like jabberwock piss? just curious..

K Williams · 10-26-2000, 04:15 PM

It's a Chinese herbal liniment in a base of grain alcohol(usually rice wine or vodka). It's applied by rubbing it into the bruise(3 to 5 times per application). It clears up black and blue marks, and relieves some pain from stick injuries, etc.

Here are two companies that make good Dit Da Jow:

Herb Shop
247 S.W. "G" Street
Grants Pass, OR 97526
Phone: (541) 479-3602
$12.75 per bottle

Brian Gray Enterprises, Inc.
409 Meco Drive
Newport, DE 19804
Phone: (800) 322-9821
http://www.briangray.com/liniment.htm

Some websites with more information...

http://www.aikidofaq.com/making/dit_da_jao.html
http://www.wingchun.org/read/jow.html
http://www.ironpalm.com/arc7.html

As for the smell, it takes some getting used to. I don't mind the smell now, but I did the first time I opened a bottle of Jow. Some are stronger than others.

[Edited by K Williams on 10-26-2000 at 11:07 PM]

Kevin · 10-26-2000, 09:38 PM

Checking in with injuries here....

I'm definitely not up to the Dog Brother level of fighting yet.... closer to their no-wind sparring (i.e.- don't swing the stick hard enough to hear the swooosh!). Last night trained with the rattan while wearing Doce Pares headgear and Lacrosse gloves. Ended up with a stick hickey, bruise from a thrust to the torso, and a bruised and swollen elbow (think half dollar sized circle about 3/8" thick). Overall.... nothing ice and time won't take care of....

This is maybe the 5th time we have sparred with rattan (as opposed to insulated PVC). Not sure if we'll ever go as hard as the Dog Bros... but we're headed in the right direction.

~Kev

quietanswer · 10-26-2000, 10:45 PM

my brother's wife is an MD. She says to use the ice ASAP (wait til you're done sparring, though, as it will freezeup/tighten any muscles near it) for drastically better effect..

not to post the obvious..she seemed to think it was rather important.

but what do WOMEN know..
(just jokes..just jokes..she knows alot..)

Chad W. Getz · 10-26-2000, 11:45 PM

Hilot-even the crude method in which I use-does work. Hilot can be done with Jow. A friend of mine makes a really mean concoction(sp?) with centepede and roaches and a few other stuff. Leo Gaje tells me of the Himag Tree, and in Hawaii we have another tree that I'll be experimenting with. I massage the guys where they were hit right after the fights if they want. With that mix from my friend, the swells go down right away and often times the bruise is very slight, if even at all.

10-23-2000, 05:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I may have asked this before, but don't recall what kind of (or if i got an) answer came back.. Out of curiosity, what kind of injuries do you full contact guys suffer... what are the most common levels of injuries.. and what are the extremes that have occurred? I've suffered some pain just from our semi padded weapons..they leave me some funky colored raised bruises and some large, knot like welts..black eyes, busted lips and gums even.. and I'm curious if I'd really suffer so much more by raising the contact level once more.. I saw on a dog brothers picture a guy is quoted as saying "it feels like sunburn" and i'd have to say that's my experience too.. what kind of pain and injuries do you guys get? you ever missed work due to them? you lose your ability to type or click a mouse, ever? wake up with the "knocked out so I have a hangover now" feeling I used to get boxing? really, some details would be appreciated, if you got the time.. __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-23-2000, 10:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks uppercut I do have home made semi-padded weapons, and would be happy to tell you how I make them if you're interested. they are of a basic and common design, but with a few details that seem to make them work much better. I agree with you that the padded weapons DO seem to keep from being mutilated, and allow for highly repetitive semi-realistic practice. I was curious, though, what our full contact fighters go through when they get hit by the rattan.. I'd like to know in case i can bump into the higher standard.. just as much, I'd like to know just so i Have a realistic idea of what my sticks will do to some poor bastard if i'm ever lucky enough to have a pair (of sticks, not the bozack) on me when mr. ugly comes hunting. thanks though __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-23-2000, 10:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
Stuart S. Igarta Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 77 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey Dwayne, the most serious injury I've had was having the skin over my shin break open, small holes and now ugly scars. I know others have gotten fractured bones in their hands. Overall, nothing very serious. Don't go with the sofstxs because the level of realism will diminish. __________________ Full Contact Hawaii "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

10-24-2000, 07:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	hm.. thats cool, stuart. out of curiosity, are any of you guys who train full contact really small boned? I am, and sometimes I hate the thought of maybe, getting my forearm broke (not to be a pansy ).. some guys have bones like a cow..and i'd imagine they can take some shots.. are the sofsticks extremely soft? no bruises or welts whatsoever? that WOULD seem really detrimental, as some kind of pain is necessary. just curious. [Edited by quietanswer on 10-24-2000 at 02:26 PM] __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-24-2000, 09:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	right on, stuart. I appreciate the info. those tall guys are probably about as wiry as I (5'9 and 135.. 138 with a hard on..woohoo!), so maybe I'm safe..we are currently using padded weapons.. the problem is finding a guy who will go full contact with me with rattan.. hm.. maybe i'll hand my training partner a rattan stick to attack me with, while i use the soft stick on him..that way i'd get the benefit, at least.. hm... __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-23-2000, 09:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	Hey there, Get some softsticks. I don't care what anybody says, they are the answer to a lot of problems. No deformed fingers - No head injuries. Just good skill work with minimal risk.. I get enough injuries in submission training to want some stick injuries too.

10-25-2000, 10:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Can you imagine fighting using a real rattan against someone with a softstx. I think the guy with the soft-stx would get thrashed. We did soft-stx long stick vs knife once, and the guy with the knife got slapped around pretty bad. You also just wind up standing so close to each other with the soft-stx because "lack of motivation to be realistic". Especially for knife sparring, which is why we use the alluminum daggers now with only the padded nike football gloves or batting glove for now. Believe me the aluminum daggers hurt on hand shots when you are just wearing a baseball gloves. I mean sure, you wind up standing a little too close, because you know this doesn't hurt like a stick, plus you guys are using small motions cuz it's a knife. But it hurts enough that you don't want to get hit by it. James caught me with a solid backhand power-speed shot on my inner forearm, left hand while I tried to tap him, and it is sore today man. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

10-25-2000, 06:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I may get thrashed, but it's the best way I can incorporate the realism of the pain, if he doesn't want to be beat with rattan himself.. (shrug) however, I'm not going to start doing that tomorrow..it's just an idea if nothing else presents itself.. __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-26-2000, 05:34 AM	#10 (permalink)
K Williams Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 72 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I haven't fought Dog Brothers style yet, only WEKAF rules(helmet, gloves, elbow pads, chest armor, rattan sticks) and fighting with padded sticks with only helmets or helmets & gloves. So far, the worst injury was a thrown(blown out...whatever is the correct term) shoulder. I couldn't do much with my right arm for a while. I've gotten the usual small cuts & bruises, a black fingernail, a broken knuckle(from stick drills) made worse in a session of stick sparring, and skin torn off my knuckle from contact with a WEKAF helmet. That's about it. Dit Da Jow has come in real handy for the bruises and sore hands. [Edited by K Williams on 10-26-2000 at 11:05 PM]

10-26-2000, 02:59 PM	#11 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	dit da jow I hear more and more about this herbal rub.. i originally wrote it off as "for suckers" (especially with the price tag i frequently see on it)but the more I hear people reference it, the more I wonder.. what do you use it for (rubbing bruises, right?) and how, and what kind of results..does it halve your healing time? does it relieve the pain? does it smell like jabberwock piss? just curious.. __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-26-2000, 04:15 PM	#12 (permalink)
K Williams Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: USA Posts: 72 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dit Da Jow It's a Chinese herbal liniment in a base of grain alcohol(usually rice wine or vodka). It's applied by rubbing it into the bruise(3 to 5 times per application). It clears up black and blue marks, and relieves some pain from stick injuries, etc. Here are two companies that make good Dit Da Jow: Herb Shop 247 S.W. "G" Street Grants Pass, OR 97526 Phone: (541) 479-3602 $12.75 per bottle Brian Gray Enterprises, Inc. 409 Meco Drive Newport, DE 19804 Phone: (800) 322-9821 http://www.briangray.com/liniment.htm Some websites with more information... http://www.aikidofaq.com/making/dit_da_jao.html http://www.wingchun.org/read/jow.html http://www.ironpalm.com/arc7.html As for the smell, it takes some getting used to. I don't mind the smell now, but I did the first time I opened a bottle of Jow. Some are stronger than others. [Edited by K Williams on 10-26-2000 at 11:07 PM]

10-26-2000, 09:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
Kevin Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 151 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Injuries Checking in with injuries here.... I'm definitely not up to the Dog Brother level of fighting yet.... closer to their no-wind sparring (i.e.- don't swing the stick hard enough to hear the swooosh!). Last night trained with the rattan while wearing Doce Pares headgear and Lacrosse gloves. Ended up with a stick hickey, bruise from a thrust to the torso, and a bruised and swollen elbow (think half dollar sized circle about 3/8" thick). Overall.... nothing ice and time won't take care of.... This is maybe the 5th time we have sparred with rattan (as opposed to insulated PVC). Not sure if we'll ever go as hard as the Dog Bros... but we're headed in the right direction. ~Kev

10-26-2000, 10:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
quietanswer Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri, USA Posts: 377 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	my brother's wife is an MD. She says to use the ice ASAP (wait til you're done sparring, though, as it will freezeup/tighten any muscles near it) for drastically better effect.. not to post the obvious..she seemed to think it was rather important. but what do WOMEN know.. (just jokes..just jokes..she knows alot..) __________________ ------------------------------------------------ *St Louis MMA Club for Boxing / Clinch / Grappling Training* *www.stlouistrainingcircle.com*

10-26-2000, 11:45 PM	#15 (permalink)
Chad W. Getz Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu Posts: 509 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hilot-even the crude method in which I use-does work. Hilot can be done with Jow. A friend of mine makes a really mean concoction(sp?) with centepede and roaches and a few other stuff. Leo Gaje tells me of the Himag Tree, and in Hawaii we have another tree that I'll be experimenting with. I massage the guys where they were hit right after the fights if they want. With that mix from my friend, the swells go down right away and often times the bruise is very slight, if even at all. __________________ Chad W. Getz Full Contact Hawaii - http://www.fullcontacthi.com Stickfighting Digest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up. The clinching arts imply the clinch can stop the striker from striking, and the grappler from taking it to the ground. The weapon arts imply the they can stop the unarmed man. A complete martial art implies any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere.

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