A good portion of the bunk stuff that's out there comes from your Mc Dojo schools trying to add some stick work to their curriculum and calling it FMA. Basically an effort to add to the bottom line. That is why most folks from your mainstream martial arts schools think of the FMA as nothing but a "stick" art.

Next you have your "paper tiger" Guros who get to be black belts after going to four seminars. Essentially buying ($$$) their certificates and calling themselves instructors. I know a person who did just that from a well known GM (from P.I.). I have this person on video and he can't move for sh#t. And to top it off, he would actually try to justify getting it. Again, these folks end up spreading their weak version of the FMA to more students. It's not combat effective, really it's just playing patty-cake drills.

IMHO, the minority group are the folks that don't really give a rats a$$ about ranks or credentials. The bottom line is, "can you walk the walk"? Train it from a combative stand point and as realistically as possible. We don't mind "spilling sweat", or occasionally blood for that matter. You train it till your exhausted, and then get out there and see if you can make it work in real time (as real as possible). Give and take your lumps, and go back and train it some more.

>In my opinion(Again all this are based in my own opinion.. beware of systems that give you outright belt rankings

I have never been a fan of belt rankings. It has no bearing on whether you can fight and/or defend yourself. I've met too many so called "Black Belts" who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag (even a wet one). But, thats not to say that I haven't met some who could. For better or for worse, most westerners like to have a way to gauge their progress. That's why some Philippine GM's probably added them to the mix. The problem lies in when the "belt" or "rank" becomes the goal, rather than a by-product of hard training. You have seen the slogans posted on the walls of some schools...."This is a Black Belt School". IMHO, it teaches the wrong focus...The belt as the goal, not necessarily combat effectivness (as always, there are some exceptions out there).

>>...systems that get names from mixing other systems..putting a little of this and a little of that and call it their own...

I understand your point, but that's what Edgar Sulite did (Lameco Eskrima), as well as Leo Giron (Giron Arnis Eskrima), Ramiro Estalilla (Rigonan-Estailla Kabaroan) to name a few. They trained under diffrent masters in the Philippines and developed their own systems. Are their arts inferior?

As I said, what it boils down to is: "can you walk the walk". Otherwise, your just playing games.

Just my opinion.

William

I understand your point, but that's what Edgar Sulite did (Lameco Eskrima), as well as Leo Giron (Giron Arnis Eskrima), Ramiro Estalilla (Rigonan-Estailla Kabaroan) to name a few. They trained under diffrent masters in the Philippines and developed their own systems. Are their arts inferior?

As I said, what it boils down to is: "can you walk the walk". Otherwise, your just playing games.

"from Sumbrada-In these cases, if ver what these mentioned eskrimadors claim is true, then we cant refute the effectivity of their synthesis of styles/systems..if their claims are true.plus one more thing..you can judge a real eskrimadors stuff by the way he/she moves and the power and speed of the strikes..as i said, here in the US , a lot of so called masters of different arts show sped but not intent..these seasoned eskirimadors from the Philippines show intent in their "Bunals"..again this is my basis for assumption..i may be in the light or not...

william wrote: I understand your point, but that's what Edgar Sulite did (Lameco Eskrima), as well as Leo Giron (Giron Arnis Eskrima), Ramiro Estalilla (Rigonan-Estailla Kabaroan) to name a few. They trained under diffrent masters in the Philippines and developed their own systems. Are their arts inferior?

mixing art that you know well is very different to mixing arts that you have little knowledge about. what i think sumbrada is talking about is, men who have little martial arts knowledge, and then they made there own style, when they know only the basics of many systems. so few of them go to the philippines, and when they go they spent only a few days or weeks there, and they come back as a "representative" of some teacher from back home. now, how much do you think he learned in this time?

but about lameco, bahala na and estalilla, the big difference about those styels is that the creators spent many years studying different methods before they made there own. now, on one hand you have a man with 20 years in the PHILIPPINE art (not 20 years in the arts, and 5 in the philippine arts), who makes his own style, and then you got another man who has less than 10 years. the man with 20 studied everyday, and probably had many matches. but the guy with 10 years (or less) did 4-5 seminars a year, and no matches. there is no comparison.

here is a list of differences from philippine fighting arts, and american FMA.

phil arts: teacher has the phil arts as his main art, some studied foreign arts, some did not.
amer art: started out in another style, like kenpo, kung fu or JKD. has been studying the FMA for the last ____ (you fill it in) years.

phil art: teaches attacking and counterattacking strategys for there "secrets"
amer art: never-before seen, ancient and authentic "philllipino" drills. guaranteed you cant fight if you dont know them.

phil art: teacher has no curriculum he uses, you just learn whatever he feels like teaching you. ex: a fat man will learn differently from a skinny guy.
amer art: everybody learns the same things, that you will probably get from his videotape also. you might get it from another teacher of another style to. (oh yeah, in my "xyz" style we have that too)

phil art: teacher will make you spar in tournament or against another school.
amer art: sparring is unrealistic, we are too deadly, we train only for street, do you carry your sticks everywhere you go, etc...

phil art: teacher will tell you that XYZ style sucks and his own is superior. do my technique and you can beat anyone. oh that style? one of my boys beat them before. likes to brag and has a puffy chest. we call it "confidence"
amer art: can we all just get along? my style isnt better, just different. you chose your own path. this is my expression. you cant go around challenging people. calls the phil teacher "rude and arrogant"

phil art: satisfied with his 2-3 weapons and a few techniques.
amer art: offers "complete" style with 12 categories.

phil art: students perform 100s of strikes for a workout.
amer art: what i call "filler", drills and more drills.

phil art: you have to study with the teacher at his house or school.
amer art: take seminars 4 times a year or more.

phil art: you get permission to teach, if it matters. for most teachers it doesnt
amer art: get a certificate, but then you have to "renew" your teaching certificate. some teachers will get a certificate for every seminar.

plus one more thing..you can judge a real eskrimadors stuff by the way he/she moves and the power and speed of the strikes..as i said, here in the US , a lot of so called masters of different arts show sped but not intent..these seasoned eskirimadors from the Philippines show intent in their "Bunals"..again this is my basis for assumption..i may be in the light or not...

Yeah, I agree with you on that. You can tell who's been swinging at air, and who's been swinging at real folks who are also trying to take you out.

what i think sumbrada is talking about is, men who have little martial arts knowledge, and then they made there own style, when they know only the basics of many systems. so few of them go to the philippines, and when they go they spent only a few days or weeks there, and they come back as a "representative" of some teacher from back home. now, how much do you think he learned in this time?

Yes, I understand, I was just trying to get him to clarify his point. As for the rest of your post, you pretty much said what I was getting at, only you said it better.

but the guy with 10 years (or less) did 4-5 seminars a year, and no matches. there is no comparison

This is one of my "Raw Nerve" subjects. As I stated in the previous post, I bust my hump training, sparring/fighting FMA 3-4 days a week since about 1990, and this guy trains off and on for a few years, goes to four seminars (once a year), and all of a sudden he is an instructor/Black Belt under a well known GM from P.I. Heck, as I said, I caught him on video, and he can't even do basic footwork????
Funny, I never cared about ranks/certs, so why should it get me worked up? I don't know, it just does. Probably because it's stuff like that which weakens the combative nature of the art.


William

Hello William and Kuntawman..i am elated to your responses to my thread. Threads like these should flourish ..since subjects like these matters especially in the FMA here in the US...I have read some of your posts before kuntawman, and i am gladthat we share the smae heartbeat..you too William.
When i was still in Mindanao, my techer and me went club busting, challenging other eskrimadors in sport matches..it's the nearest we can get into combat..but never the less it givs us more confidence and at the smae time teach us to refine our hits9In mour case, they all ate our sticks..one even broke his knee)..when i left i told my teacher to pursue these with his other students since this would show them and us what real Kali is.....anyways, lets encourage each other as well as people who have the clarity that we are a combat martial art.....take care and God Bless.
Mabuhay ang totoong mga Kalista, ma Americano o ma Pilipino man.

See new thread I did entitled "How can I get people to fight with me?" it was inspired from this thread. Good post you guys!!

There is only an actual real small percent of real FMA being taught in the USA today. Too much commercialization, I wouldn't even know where to start on why it is like this now. When I first started learning, it wasn't like this, as far as I can remember as how karate-ized it has become.

My biggest gripe: For all the techniques that are shown, I have never been to a school that practices applying your technique against full powered strikes at a real distance. Except for Full Contact Hawaii, of course. I haven't had the pleasure of working out with Dog Brothers, yet(except Dogzilla who is in Hawaii now), and with/against kuntawman, though one day I'll make it up there, brother.


Keep Swinging,

Chad W. Getz
Stickfighting Hawaii
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stickfighting

lets encourage each other as well as people who have the clarity that we are a combat martial art.....take care and God Bless.
Mabuhay ang totoong mga Kalista, ma Americano o ma Pilipino man.

Amen!! It's good to find like minded individuals out there to give encouragement to keep it real. Stay on the path my brother, you're going the right way.

William