doubleouch

I used to train a little kali. One day in class the instructor was talking about how to move the arm after cutting a major artery so that the blood would not spray into your eyes etc. something really hit home and I got the reality of the situation. I knew in my heart that slashing and cutting someone with a knife was probably not in my character and learning to do it didn't sit right with me. I learned that there really is no self defense. There is just kill him or he kills you. I did not want to learn to be an assasin. I moved on to less lethal arts like boxing and bjj and feel much better. I don't have to talk about blood spattering in eyes etc. I realize it is a matter of degree, but now when I do a "lethal" technique on someone they wake up. As for self defense, I really don't worry about it. The likleyhood of facing a knife wielding opponent is slim to nill. Any one else have any reservations about learning to slice and dice?

ryanhall

No, but I hope to God that I don't ever have to use a blade on anybody, even if I am completely justified. Think about it like this: if the situation has gone that bad, it's terrible in the first place. Secondly, it's not easy to do that kind of up close and personal stuff. Shooting someone from 100 yards out with a rifle is nothing like having them take their last breath in your arms after you releived their heart of its ability to pump blood to their brain. It really is a life altering experience, and unfourtunate doesn't even describe a situation in which it's necessary. That said, I know that I would do what was necessary to protect myself and my loved ones. Even if it meant doing something terrible to my/their attacker.

__________________
"Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

ryanhall

One more thing: this Kali guy was obviously speaking from conjecture alone, as I'm sure he's never cut anybody. People don't stand there and allow you to carve them up (I didn't when an a**hole put a knife to my throat over a game of cards), so there's absolutely no way that you would know where the blood would fly. People tend to flail and move a lot when they have a sharp object slice into them. Even if you were into Kali, I would recommend leaving someone like that.

__________________
"Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

Starrider7777

Well, my philosophy is probably much like most of you here. I will do just about anything to avoid a fight. If you actually get me there and I assess you as a very real and possibly contunuing threat I would have to say that you have worked pretty hard to recieve your just reward. I, therefore, at that point would be ready to use a knife in an offensive/defensive manner. Of course if it's a drunk or obnoxious schoolboy or barfly I would not justify using a blade because when it comes out someone is going to die or suffer very much at the least. For a real, strong, determined and quantitatively "evil" perpetrator posing a threat to innocent people or myself I would not hesitate...knowing that my hesitation may cause more damage than it would prevent. God forbid, if that occaision were ever to occur, I would just have to work it out in a courtroom after the fact.
It is hard for me to even imagine such a scenario. The closest thing I can come up with is a plane full of people being intimidated and led to their own and many others' death by some wild eyed terrorist with a freakin' boxcutter. OHHHH how I wish someone like one of us with some training would have been there on one of those airliners bound for the twin towers on 9-11 to possibly change the course of things....
That is why I have trained not only in Kali but a variety of other disciplines...just in case I ever do find myself in a worst case scenario I may at least be able to make a positive difference in the outcome that would otherwise be a lot less likely.

__________________
Battles are lost in the mind before they are lost in combat.

moromoro

you made the right choice that "KALI" guy didnt know what his was talking about.....
you can see the unpracticality from comments made by guys like these.......not real eskrima really......

thanks

terry

Ryu (JKD?)

As someone who has pulled a knife before in a fight situation, I'd just just like to agree with Ryan and Terry. Your adrenaline is so high anyway that you aren't going to have the chance to "redirect his arm so his blood won't spray in your eyes."
Anytime a weapon comes out in real life...everything changes. Most of what you know goes out the window..ESPECIALLY with a blade. Gross motor skills and frightened reflexes are what you're left with. If you strike someone's arm or hand with a blade, there's no telling what his reaction will be or where the blood (if any) will "fly."

Ryu

__________________
Sekkendo...

doubleouch

My point wasn't whether the guy was a good teacher or not. It was that I was learning to be an assasin. How to stab slice and kill. I felt like doing that would eventually either make me calous to the whole situation or desensitize me to it. I just didn't feel justified in spending time away from my family learning to cut people with a knife! I'm sure if someone attacked my daughter I would use every ruthless thing I could including cutting the dudes head off! It was just the training to do it. Talking about taking someones life like we were talking about a play in football or something. There seemed to be a lack of a sense of the seriousness of the endeavor.

ryanhall

Bred from the instructor's total lack of actual experience and understaning of what using deadly force entails legally, morally, physically, and psychologically. Some people think they're cool because they talk about ending someone's life like they're taking out the garbage. You do what's necessary, but you don't glorify it.

__________________
"Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

BlackMaskX

Martial arts were originally intended to kill or seriously injure people. I don't have any reservations about learning how to kill or seriously injure people in martial arts classes because that's what martial arts were originally intended to do.

However, I would really, really hope that I would never have to use those skills. Even if I had no other choice, I'm sure seriously hurting or killing somebody would psychologically scar me for the rest of my life.

doubleouch

Black Mask
You are better than me if you don't have a problem with it. Just because that is what the arts were originally intended to do doesn't excuse it for me. I think if you are going to learn to stab people with a knife some serious soul searching is in order. I don't think alot of people do that. My original goal for studying martial arts was not self defense but self improvement. I questioned that learning to stab and cut someone was the best way for me. I went to the gym last night and put on the gloves and got into the ring and went at it full contact. When the match was over my partner and I were both OK. We had big smiles and laughed about the big hook punch he landed on me that could be heard across the gym. With this art, I can actually practice the application real time with 100% realism and go home knowing that no one got hurt or killed. With kali I couldn't actually practice the application at 100% and I had to go home with the knowledge that I was learning to kill people. Anyway, this is just a personal feeling of mine and not meant to be a criticism of kali in any way. If it works for you go practice it!

moromoro

ohh man this guy was fake.....

in the philippines many styles of eskrima dont have drills and all applications can be applied in real time because they are practised in real time........ a lot of full contact sparring...
keep away from schools that teach drill after drill.......

as ryu said before in a real confrontation it is gross motor skills which take over......


thanks

terry

Juramentado

Good point doubleouch. I don't think your misgivings about kali's intent is an isolated case. Like you mentioned, self-defense is not at the top of your list of reasons for studying a martial art and there are a lot of peopel who get into an art for precisely the same reasons. That's ok.

Kali is just one style. The martial arts are so incredibly diverse that just there's an art for anyone's inclinations. It's great that you've determined what you're looking for and know what you don't want to do or learn. That's a lot better than sticking to something only to find out years later that you prefer another art.

From a traditional perspective, BlackMaskX is right. Killing was the original intent of the martial arts. Some arts have moved beyind that while others maintain their intent. Nothing wrong with either way.

I guess one reason why kali is still focused on martial intent is that the art is one of the very few styles that have recent lethal applications. The art was widely used as late as WWII precisely as a means of killing enemies and even know is being used by the Phil. military units in actual combat. You can still travel around the Phill. and meet people who have first-hand knowledge of how it is to actually kill someone with this martial art. The bloody roots of Kali ares still very much alive, and far from being relegated to ancient stories or just folk tales.

Side note: I find that technique of directing the flow of blood away from you a bit strange. I've never heard of anything like that in FMA but then again I'm far from being an expert.

moromoro

i dont think so man, kali does not exist in any of our dialects... this was a word first used by yambao and also villabrille who then told inosanto that he was a supreme grandmaster of kali and that eskrima and arnis where not complete arts and that his kali was the only complete art of the philippines...

it is best to call our arts eskrima or arnis


thanks

terry

Juramentado

Kali..arnis..escrima..whatever. Call it whatever you want

My point is: kali / arnis / escrima's use as a means of killing are pretty fresh. In contrast (and I mean no offense), you'd have a very difficult time finding someone in Japan who has actually cleaved someone from should to hip with a katana in an actual encounter.

yenhoi

I think its odd that you think its bad to study stabbing people, but okay to study bashing their brains in.

Maybe you just dont like knives, like some people dont like needles.

Do you think that hard tight hook leaves someone okay when you (if you can) apply it in "reality"?

Do you consider the realitys of beating on people with your arms and legs? What about knives and blood changes the reality of fighting and trying to hurt another human?

__________________
strike!