resistance or pump iron?

[aku aku]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I disagree. Every combat athlete works on cardio for improved cardiovascular function and weight control. Here are some good examples:

The stated goal was to get lean and ripped. Anaerobic conditioning will do that more effectively than long, slow distance cardio. Just compare the physiques of marathon runners versus sprinters. Also, heart health is measured in terms of reserve capacity and low intensity aerobics don't give you that.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

1. Off season workout for Princeton University's Wrestling team.
http://www.princeton.edu/wrestling/u...%20Running.pdf

*Note they use both intervals and distance work.

2. Conditioning routine used at Lanna Muaythai Camp in Thailand.
http://www.lannamuaythai.com/

Look to the table on the right under running:

" Running is done in the early morning and, if you are fighting, before training in the afternoon. Morning runs vary each day with long runs of up to ten kilometres, twice a week; hill runs of eight to ten kilometres. twice a week, a short but fast run of five km. and a slow steady run of six to ten kilometres. One day a week should be a rest day. Included in the long runs should be wind sprints, backward running, sidestepping, rotation footwork, and shadowboxing. The wind sprints will help to build explosive power and stamina, while the footwork will develop balance and sure footedness, and shadow boxing helps hand and foot coordination. "

3. Cardio training for boxing according to Rossboxing
http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym/thegym1.htm

Ross develops an interval-running routine that mimics the work to rest ratio of boxers during a bout.

I'm aware that fighters have always done distance work but I've seen convincing arguments that it isn't the most productive use of your time, especially if you don't have that much of it. In sports science they talk about the S.A.I.D principle: Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand. Low intensity aerobics works a different energy pathway than is used in fighting. Sure, there is an aerobic component to fighting but that will get worked during intervals. Check out the Tabata protocol, it was pointed out that if you wanted to run long distance you will still have to run long distances but all areas of fitness were improved.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

4. Lastly, look at the men of the U.S. military special forces and the USMC. They are lean and mean. A good portion of their physical training consists of running or running and swimming, especially in the case of the SEALs and USMC Recon.

People in the military are training for a whole different environment than a fighter or someone who wants to get "lean and ripped" and their training reflects that.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by aku aku

The stated goal was to get lean and ripped. Anaerobic conditioning will do that more effectively than long, slow distance cardio. Just compare the physiques of marathon runners versus sprinters. Also, heart health is measured in terms of reserve capacity and low intensity aerobics don't give you that..

Ah...but not everyone who runs is a marathon runner or sprinter, as in the cases above - they are all combat athletes or warriors whom run for improved fitness, weight control, the ability to get close in on or get away from a bad situation quickly.

Boxers run. Muaythai fighters run. They tend to be shredded, don't you think?

Originally Posted by aku aku

I'm aware that fighters have always done distance work but I've seen convincing arguments that it isn't the most productive use of your time, especially if you don't have that much of it. In sports science they talk about the S.A.I.D principle: Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand...

Wrestlers run more during their offseason to maintain their cardiovascular fitness, take time off from wrasslin' and stay in their weight class. That's a productive use of their training cycle.

I used Ross's Sport-Specific example to show how running could be molded into a routine that would save time and prove more functional for the sport at hand. Interval training is not the same thing as Long Slow Distance (LSD) or Continuous Hight Intensity(CHI) running.

Originally Posted by aku aku

Low intensity aerobics works a different energy pathway than is used in fighting. Sure, there is an aerobic component to fighting but that will get worked during intervals. Check out the Tabata protocol, it was pointed out that if you wanted to run long distance you will still have to run long distances but all areas of fitness were improved.

I understand the differences between the energy pathways used. I used to have a chart on them...somewhere.

If you look at Princeton Wrestling's routine more closesly they do both intervals, uphill runs and LSD runs. Same with Lanna Muaythai camp. They run 10K LSD runs, 8-10K hill runs, 5K CHI runs etc. on top of there pad work, sparring, drills etc.

Originally Posted by aku aku

People in the military are training for a whole different environment than a fighter or someone who wants to get "lean and ripped" and their training reflects that.

I have an idea of how they train

But the common factor they have with combat athletes is that they put the mileage in! I can understand if someone has bad knees or some health condition that prohibits them from running, but cardio training is not overrated.

[aku aku]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Ah...but not everyone who runs is a marathon runner or sprinter, as in the cases above - they are all combat athletes or warriors whom run for improved fitness, weight control, the ability to get close in on or get away from a bad situation quickly.

Those were just examples of each extreme. The effects of each type of training on the physique is obvious. As anecdotal evidence: One of my friends gained weight training for a marathon and it wasn't muscle. A couple other friends have had good luck losing their guts by charging up hills around the neighborhood on their bikes. I realize that's not too scientific though.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Boxers run. Muaythai fighters run. They tend to be shredded, don't you think?

They are shredded, that's for sure. If they left out the distance running I believe they would still be shredded.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I used Ross's Sport-Specific example to show how running could be molded into a routine that would save time and prove more functional for the sport at hand. Interval training is not the same thing as Long Slow Distance (LSD) or Continuous Hight Intensity(CHI) running.

Ross does point out that the distance running is more to prepare you for the more intense training.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

But the common factor they have with combat athletes is that they put the mileage in! I can understand if someone has bad knees or some health condition that prohibits them from running, but cardio training is not overrated.

"Cardio" is a pretty broad term. It's not that I don't feel low intensity aerobics have value BUT: People commonly use them to improve their cardiovasular health and to lose weight and recent scientific research tells us that it's not as effective as previously thought.

The goal is: "get ripped and lose weight. Also to get as strong as I can get." so I think some kind of circuit training with weights would probably be a good start, something with high volume and short rest periods like Mahler's "A Simple Fat Loss Program that Works" http://www.mikemahler.com/newsletter/83.html. High rep ballistic work with dumbells or kettlebells has gotten fantastic results for many people. Low intensity aerobics could be used as a form of active recovery but shouldn't be the focus of the program.

Here's a good article on cardio:

http://staleytraining.com/articles/t...etary_changes/

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by aku aku

They are shredded, that's for sure. If they left out the distance running I believe they would still be shredded.Ross does point out that the distance running is more to prepare you for the more intense training.

'zactly. LSD and CHI runs build you up for more sport specific, interval type training.

Originally Posted by aku aku

"Cardio" is a pretty broad term. It's not that I don't feel low intensity aerobics have value BUT: People commonly use them to improve their cardiovasular health and to lose weight and recent scientific research tells us that it's not as effective as previously thought..

I never met a fat marathoner...lol not that they don't exhist. Take a marathon runner, phase out some of his training and replace it with low weight, high rep work = one ripped and lean athlete.

[aku aku]

I found a little bit about how long slow distance work may help a martial artist. It was mentioned in a discussion on another board but I think I will look around and try to find some of the original sources.

Apparently, when the Europeans started doing research on interval training they eliminated distance work. The athletes improved significantly at the beginning but after a couple of years their performance stalled and actually declined. When they re-introduced lsd training along with their interval training the athletes began to peak again year after year.

The theory is that, while the interval training dramatically improved fitness, it was a huge stress on the heart and didn't help increase the stroke volume of the left ventrical in the heart which became the limiting factor. The lsd training increased the stroke volume and allowed for greater potential fitness.

They concluded that, while high intensity should form the bulk of your training, lsd work should be included from time to time.

I never said slow distance has no value but this is the first time I've seen an actual reason why it should be included in a combat athletes training.

But I think we've gotten off track, let's go back to the stated goal: "My goal is to get ripped and lose weight. Also to get as strong as I can get."

He didn't specify but "lose weight" usually means to reduce body fat, unless he wants to stay in a certain weight class or something. To get as strong as possible some kind of heavy resistance training is almost mandatory and a properly designed program can also help to reduce body fat which is why I feel it's important. There's also good research showing that interval training is superior for losing fat which is why I feel it should be emphasized, at least for the short term. Lsd work can certainly be cycled in or used as a form of active recovery but it probably shouldn't be emphasized right now.

I really like some of Mike Mahler's programs, he has experience training mma fighters and he has a lot of good information available for free on his web site. Also anything from Pavel Tsatsouline, Charles Staley, BJJ champ Steve Maxwell or full contact kung fu champ Steve Cotter is worth reading. Dr. Squat is more of a powerlifter but he has had success in training Evander Holyfield, the training program can be found here:

http://sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

[Tom Yum]

I like Dr. Squat's work.

I think he underemphasizes cardio work, though.

[aku aku]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I like Dr. Squat's work.

I think he underemphasizes cardio work, though.

I kind of agree with you there.

It occured to me that, when Evander started training with Dr. Squat, he probably already had a good aerobic base to build on.

[Darthmaul]

So does a martial artist that wants to be stronger, better striker, grappler, is concernded with self defence, etc..... hit the weights or just do body weight exercises?

Ok, lets take a big old body builder, ok these types are solid, and I am sure they are strong, but what about there body type that hinders them from fighting? It is just hard to see how a guy like that would be hard to fight if I just did body weight exercises.

I wonder, these guys in the UFC, do they hit the weights or just do body weight exercises.

Oh Cardio, yes, very important, just from doing a little sparing, I can see how if your cardio is not up to par, your tired before the fight begins.

[aku aku]

Being stronger is always nice and it can be accomplished with either barbells or body weight. Any exercise that's sufficently challenging will build strength. You could do heavy bench presses and rows or you could do handstand pushups and one arm chin-ups, they all build strength.

Keep in mind that bodybuilding and strength training are two different things and brings us to the topic of myofibrillar vs sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. In the words of Pavel Tsatsouline in his book "Power to the People":

"Myofibrillar hpertrophy, or 'real' muscle growth, is an enlargement of the muscle fiber as it gains more myofibrils, things which contract and generate tension. The muscle gets stronger and harder. Myofibrillar hypertrophy is accomplished by training with heavy weights.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, on the other hand, is a worthless increase in the volume of the muscle cell fluid as a result of high rep training. The fluid, sarcoplasm, accounts for 25-30% of the muscle's size."

When Pavel refers to "high reps" he is referring to more than 5 reps, such as the 8-12 range that body builders often use and they tend to have a lot of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is why they are often not as strong as they look. Not that they aren't strong but there are smaller people who will be just as strong.

Another approach is frequent, heavy, low volume training which will train the nervous system to contract a greater percentage of muscle fibers and will increase your strength without adding much size. Pavels "Power to the People" workout calls for two exercises done for 2 sets of 5 reps, 5 days per week. The advantage of this is you get stronger without getting bigger, you don't walk around being sore all the time, it takes very little time and you have energy left to do other things such as martial arts training.

Of course a martial artist needs good muscular endurance too which can be developed with high rep calisthenics like pushups and body weight squats, some people work up to doing hundreds of reps. When you get to this rep range you're not building much strength or size but you're building the ability to outlast your opponant. As I understand it, this kind of conditioning is more important to a grappler than a striker. A kickboxer can build endurance by kicking the bag, hitting tires with a pipe, high rep snatches with kettlebells, clubs or dumbells, things of a more ballistic nature.

I don't know much about ufc training but I did read that Frank Shamrock was doing a lot of dumbell snatches and later started using kettlebells.

[scors77]

Wow, that's a lot of information there aku. So after reading that, I think I misunderstood my original goal. My goal now, after reading that, is to get as strong as I can get and at the same time "look" as strong as I can. I also want to be a strong striker as well. So what can I do man? I want to hit the weights(pump iron) so I can "look" strong and also try that workout routine so I can be as strong as I look.

So again, I want to get as strong as I can get and "look" as strong as that.

[DickHardman]

what about hgh and roids?

[aku aku]

Originally Posted by scors77

Wow, that's a lot of information there aku. So after reading that, I think I misunderstood my original goal. My goal now, after reading that, is to get as strong as I can get and at the same time "look" as strong as I can. I also want to be a strong striker as well. So what can I do man? I want to hit the weights(pump iron) so I can "look" strong and also try that workout routine so I can be as strong as I look.

So again, I want to get as strong as I can get and "look" as strong as that.

To get bigger and be as strong as you look, use heavy weight and high volume. The weight should be heavy enough that you're not doing more than about 5 reps. To get the volume you need to do many sets. Don't mess with isolation exercises, they're for bodybuilding and working around injuries. Use large, basic movements: deadlift, squats, overhead pressing, rows, pullups, dips, etc.

Give the 5x5 program a try. Basically it's 5 sets of 5 reps. Rather than repeating what's already been said, I'll refer you to this excellent article:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler73.htm

I also highly recommend Pavel Tsatsouline's book "Power to the People". He explains a lot of the theory and describes a couple of great strength workouts, one for gaining size and one for not gaining size.

To increase your striking power you might want to give the full contact twist a try. I found a video on youtube, it's not quite the way I learned it (I learned to do more pivot on the feet so you almost end up in a kung fu twist stance and also done a little slower) but is an excellent exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2VmDm58MMI&NR

[Tom Yum]

Aku, you've got alot of knowledge. I'd love to chat with you more on training topics through PMs.

Is looking strong as important as being functionally strong. Can you do both? Sure but this means more training time....

Personally, I would rather be underestimated by the way I look and be able to fight explosively all day and all night than look mean, be strong but not for long...lol

Knockout power is more of a function of explosive training, timing and technique than it is size. Size is important too, but its not the only thing.

Look at Ramon Dekkers (136-lber), Rickey Hatton (148-lber) Roy Jones Jr. (as a 168-lber) etc. I think Boar and Darrianation both mentioned that some of the deadliest men in the military are under 200-lbs.

[scors77]

Originally Posted by aku aku

To get bigger and be as strong as you look, use heavy weight and high volume. The weight should be heavy enough that you're not doing more than about 5 reps. To get the volume you need to do many sets. Don't mess with isolation exercises, they're for bodybuilding and working around injuries. Use large, basic movements: deadlift, squats, overhead pressing, rows, pullups, dips, etc.

Give the 5x5 program a try. Basically it's 5 sets of 5 reps. Rather than repeating what's already been said, I'll refer you to this excellent article:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler73.htm

I also highly recommend Pavel Tsatsouline's book "Power to the People". He explains a lot of the theory and describes a couple of great strength workouts, one for gaining size and one for not gaining size.

To increase your striking power you might want to give the full contact twist a try. I found a video on youtube, it's not quite the way I learned it (I learned to do more pivot on the feet so you almost end up in a kung fu twist stance and also done a little slower) but is an excellent exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2VmDm58MMI&NR

Thanks man that's some good stuff. I have a few questions though.

"To get bigger and be as strong as you look, use heavy weight and high volume. The weight should be heavy enough that you're not doing more than about 5 reps. To get the volume you need to do many sets. Don't mess with isolation exercises, they're for bodybuilding and working around injuries. Use large, basic movements: deadlift, squats, overhead pressing, rows, pullups, dips, etc."

Does that mean when I'm doing bench press to do weights heavy enough so I'm not doing more than about 5 reps. But don't you need to do light weight before hitting the heavy weight when bench pressing to warm up?

"To increase your striking power you might want to give the full contact twist a try. I found a video on youtube, it's not quite the way I learned it (I learned to do more pivot on the feet so you almost end up in a kung fu twist stance and also done a little slower) but is an excellent exercise."

That looks like a good workout. I think I'm gonna try it. Is there also any ways you could isolate muscle workouts that involve striking? I want to isolate them and pump the iron separately for each muscle group that involves striking so I can be one strong striker.

[aku aku]

Originally Posted by scors77

Thanks man that's some good stuff. I have a few questions though.

Does that mean when I'm doing bench press to do weights heavy enough so I'm not doing more than about 5 reps. But don't you need to do light weight before hitting the heavy weight when bench pressing to warm up?

It is common to do a couple of warm up sets and that's fine. Don't use too much energy in the warm up though, save it for the work sets. Some people argue that a warm up is not necessary but I wouldn't jump into that if you're not used to it.

Originally Posted by scors77

That looks like a good workout. I think I'm gonna try it. Is there also any ways you could isolate muscle workouts that involve striking? I want to isolate them and pump the iron separately for each muscle group that involves striking so I can be one strong striker.

Isolating and pumping are more of a bodybuilding thing and not necessary for a fighter, you're better off picking three or four exercises that work the whole body. Keep in mind that lifting weights is a skill just like martial arts. Your nevous system is speed and load specific and, if you try to simulate your martial arts techniques too closely, it's like developing a new skill that will compete for dominance with the unweighted one. Another arguement would be that, if you focus on the punching muscles, you could end up with imbalances unless you also focus on all the antangonistic muscles as well. That could end up being a lot of time spent in the gym.