IPON

Can you provide some details of this match when/where it occurred and who was involved. As I understood there was challeges, talk and letters but never an agreement of true NHB and thus no fight.

Also, no need to qulaify the effectiveness by saying its better than another style. You have some issue with BJJ from your other post, but leave WC out of your issue.

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

IPON

Garland BREAK-IT-DOWN HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH that post was funny as shit LMAO.

This is an all star thread: Boar, Garland Thi and Jubaji

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

jubaji

Did you come down off your 'stupid' high yet?

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

kingoftheforest

As soon as you come down off your high horse. if you fat ass hasn't squished him yet.

__________________
These opinions and views described above may not be the opinion of forum moderators or owners. These are owned only by this forum member protected by his 1st amendment rights. You do not have to agree with these views.

This punch is heavier than life.
Treat other people as you would like to be treated

[

Thai Bri

Let's have a moments silence. We will all misss him.

punkmonk

From the rec.martialarts FAQ

(Contributor: Marty Goldberg - gungfu@csd4.csd.uwm.edu)

Intro: One of the most popular forms of Gongfu.

Origin: China

History:

Wing Chun was an obscure and little known art until the mid twentieth
century. While multiple histories of the art do exist (some with only
minor discrepancies), the generally accepted version is thus:


he style traces its roots back over 250 years ago to the Southern
Shaolin Temple. At that time, the temple a was sanctuary to the
Chinese revolution that was trying to overthrow the ruling Manchu. A
classical martial arts system was taught in the temple which took
15-20 years to produce an efficient fighter.

Realizing they needed to produce efficent fighters at a faster pace,
five of China's grandmasters met to discuss the merits of each of the
various forms of gongfu. They chose the most efficient techniques,
theories and principles from the various styles and proceeded to
develop a training program that produced an efficent fighter in 5-7
years.

Before the program was put into practice, the Southern temple was
raided and destroyed. A lone nun, Ng Mui, was the only survivor who
knew the full system. She wandered the countryside, finally taking in
a young orphan girl and training her in the system. She named the
girl Yimm Wing Chun (which has been translated to mean Beautiful
Springtime, or Hope for the Future), and the two women set out
refining the system.

The system was passed down through the years, and eventually became
known as Wing Chun, in honor of the founder. The veil of secrecy
around the art was finally broken in the early 1950's when Grandmaster
Yip Man began teaching publicly in Hong Kong, and his students began
gaining noteriety for besting many systems and experienced opponents
in streetfights and "friendly" competitions. The art enjoyed even
more popularity when one of its students, Bruce Lee, began to enjoy
world wide fame.

Description:

Most important is the concept of not using force against force, which
allows a weak fighter to overcome stronger opponents. Generally, a
Wing Chun practitioner will seek to use his opponent's own force
against him. A great deal of training is put in to this area, and is
done with the cultivation of a concept called Contact Reflexes (see
"Training").

Also of importance are the use of several targeting ideas in Wing
Chun. The Mother Line is an imaginary pole running vertically through
the center of your body. From the Mother Line emanates the Center
Line, which is a vertical 3D grid that divides the body in to a right
half and a left half. Most of the vital points of the body are along
the Center Line, and it is this area that the Wing Chun student learns
to protect as well as work off of in his own offensive techniques.
Also emanating from the Mother Line is the Central Line. The Central
Line is seen as the shortest path between you and your opponent, which
is generally where most of the exchange is going to take place.
Because of this linear concept, most of the techniques seek to occupy
one of the two lines and take on a linear nature.

This leads to the expression of another very important concept in Wing
Chun: "Economy of Motion". The analogy of a mobile tank with a turret
(that of course shoots straight out of the cannon) is often used to
describe the linear concept.

Only two weapons are taught in the system, the Dragon Pole and the
Butterfly swords. These are generally taught only once the student
has a firm foundation in the system.

Training:

The way the art produces efficent and adaptble fighters in a
relatively short time is by sticking to several core principles and
constantly drilling them in to the student, as well as taking a very
generic approach to techniques. Instead of training a response to a
specific technique, the student practices guarding various zones about
the body and dealing genericly with whatever happens to be in that
zone. This allows for a minimum of technique for a maximum of
application, and for the use of automatic or "subconcious" responses.

Much training time is spent cultivating "Contact Reflexes". The idea
is that at the moment you contact or "touch" your opponent, your body
automaticaly reads the direction, force, and often intent of the part
of the opponent's body you are contacting with and automatically
(subconciously) deals with it accordingly. This again lends itself to
the generic concept of zoning.

Contact Reflexes and the concept of not using force against force are
taught and cultivated through unique two man sensitivity drills called
Chi Sao.

The concepts of guarding and working off of these lines and zones are
learned throught the practice of the three forms Wing Chun students
learn, and which contain the techniques of the system: Shil Lum Tao,
Chum Kil, and Bil Jee.

Another unique aspect of the system is the use of the Mook Jong, or
wooden dummy, a wood log on a frame that has three "arms" and a "leg"
to simulate various possible positions of an opponent's limbs. A
wooden dummy form is taught to the student, that consists of 108
movements and is meant to introduce the student to various
applications of the system. It also serves to help the student perfect
his own skills.

Weapons training drills off the same generic ideas and concepts as the
open hand system (including the use of Contact Reflexes). Many of the
weapon movements are built off of or mimic the open hand moves (which
is the reverse process of Kali/Escrima/Arnis, where weapon movements
come first and open hand movements mimic these).

Sub-Styles:

Currently, there exist several known substyles of Wing Chun. Separate
from Yip Man are the various other lineages that descended from one of
Yip Man's teachers, Chan Wah Shun. These stem from the 11 or so other
disciples that Chan Wah Shun had before Yip Man.

Pan Nam Wing Chun (currently discussed here and in the martial arts
magazines) is currently up for debate, with some saying a totally
separate lineage, and others saying he's from Chan Wah Shun's lineage.

Red Boat Wing Chun is a form dating back from when the art resided on
the infamous Red Boat Opera Troup boat. Little is known about the
history of this art or its validity.

At the time of Yip Man's death in 1972, his lineage splintered in to
many sub-styles and lineages. Politics played into this splintering a
great deal, and provided much news in the martial arts community
throughout the 70's and 80's. By the time the late 80's/early 90's
rolled around, there were several main families in Yip Man's lineage.
To differentiate each lineage's unique style of the art, various
spellings or wordings of the art were copyrighted and trademarked
(phonetically, Wing Chun can be spelled either as Wing Chun, Wing
Tsun, Ving Tsun, or Ving Chun). These main families and spellings
are:

Wing Tsun -- Copyrighted and Trademarked by Grandmaster Leung Ting.
Used to describe the system he learned as Grandmaster Yip Man's last
direct student before his death. Governing body is the International
Wing Tsun Martial Arts Association, and the American Wing Tsun
Organization in the U.S.

Traditional Wing Chun -- Copyrighted and Trademarked by Grandmaster
William Cheung. Used to describe a very different version of Wing
Chun he learned while living with Yip Man in the 1950's. Includes
different history of lineage as well. Governing body is the World
Wing Chun Kung Fu Association.

Ving Tsun - Used by other students of Yip Man, such as Moy Yat. This
spelling was considered the main one used by Grandmaster Yip Man as
well. It is also used by many of the other students, and was adopted
for use in one of the main Wing Chun associations in Hong Kong -- The
Ving Tsun Athletic Organization.

Wing Chun - General spelling used by just about all practitioners of
the art.

A World Wide listing of Wing Chun Kwoons (schools) is maintained by
Marty Goldberg (gungfu@csd4.csd.uwm.edu) and posted periodically to
rec.martial-arts. A mailing list (open to all students of Wing Chun)
is also maintained by Marty and Rob Gillespe at majordomo@efn.org



Wing Chun Video Sites:
I gathered these from other posts in this forum. If anyone knows of additional WingChun clip sites, please add them here.

===


http://www.windycitywingchun.com/mul.../wcmovies.html
Some good "How To" clips.

http://www.leungting.com/
A few nice informational videos, more 'background' than 'howto'.

http://www.martialartinstitute.com/video_clips.htm
About a dozen video clips, appear to have been gathered from many places. Qualitys eh, in many. Worth a look.


Also of note is Sifu Grados. His stuffs impressive, as its usually got a nice beat and shows some good stuff. It is however more of a comercial than anything educational.
http://www.sifugrados.com/mcvideos.shtml

He also offers a "Technique of the Month" section, and this is much more informative than his videos. They are clear, and done at a 'teaching' spead. A bit short, but most definately worth a look.
http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml


http://www.wingchun.com/anim.shtml
These are animated GIFs, not videos.

http://members.lycos.nl/wingtsuncombat/
This ones in German (I think)..the videos are low quality, and I've seen them floating around the net.




Additional links:
http://gongsau.isportsdot.com/ - many broken links

http://www.wingtjun.com - short clips

http://209.197.240.134/media/sifu_music_video.html - WC Rap Video

http://www.wingtsun.com.au/gallery/movies.html

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp Forms videos, def. cool.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/wingtsun/videos.html many broken links

http://www.geocities.com/sifuleungmovies/ Lots of clips, also a CD of clips is available for sale.

Additional Videos:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/wingtsun/wt/videos.shtml

http://pages.zdnet.com/wingtsun/wing....com/id18.html

http://www.syracusewingchun.com/
http://www.syracusewingchun.com/wcmovies.html

http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/tech1.htm

A little contribution from Sweden:

http://www.wingtsunvestsj.dk/video.html

http://www.meihua.ee/index.php?file=video

http://www.wingtzun-eschwege.de/kkb-...00308/avis.htm

http://www.wingtsun.zigzag.pl/wingtsun.mpg

http://www.martialarts.dk/videoklip.asp

http://wtmag.dk/filmarkiv.php

http://www.wingtsuncantabria.com/internacional.htm

http://www.manne.nu/default.cfm?page...20Tchun%20Film

New clip from Ving Tchun System, Sweden

http://www.vingtchun.com/video/Allhelgona2003.avi Clipsize: 29 MB

Dai-Sifu Reimers Wing Tsung in "Galerie" there are some new videos.

http://www.meihua.ee/video/FestALL(medium_quality).wmv 58 MB

http://www.uctvingtsun.com

punkmonk

"Do not hurt where holding is enough; do not wound where hurting is enough; do not maim where wounding is enough; do not kill where maiming is enough; the greatest warrior is he who does not have to kill"
~The Oath Of Peace - The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by: Stephen R. Donaldson

punkmonk

Ipon, I train WC, and prefer it. I have no issues with WC.

punkmonk

Wing Chun Philosophy
In Ying Gi Ga Wing Chun, we recognize that Wing Chun was created as and should be instructed as a combat art. We recognize as well that the practitioners of Wing Chun will hopefully spend only a small fraction of a percent of time in their lives fighting. It is important, therefore, to be able to use the same concepts and principles used in fighting to better other non-combat areas of your life. Each fighting principle can also be interpreted philosophically. We believe that the practice of Wing Chun, and an understanding of its principles and philosophies, should be a catalyst to putting each practitioner in the driver's seat of his or her life. The development of great fighting abilities should give each of us the ability to be kind, compassionate, and loving by overcoming the fears that often manifest themselves as anger and hate. The truly competent warrior is not boastful. The truly secure person is free from the need to impress others with his or her physical prowess and free from the need to have the approval of others. He or she can be understanding, acceptant, and kind without the fear of being thought weak for his or her kindness.
The reason for the philosophy portion of our homepage is to help each of you tap into the inner power that you all have and to help you to take control of and responsibility for your own life. It is designed to help you recognize how much more powerful positive energy and accomplishing goals of a positive nature is, as opposed to negative thought and deed. Our worst enemy is often ourselves. Look inside of yourself and overcome your demons of fear and insecurity and you will find a path to a happier life. No matter how many people you can beat in battle, you will find no lasting happiness in bringing harm to others. Competent fighting skills are important but should be used to protect yourself or those you love in times of danger. You must choose your battles wisely. Your fighting skills should be a catalyst to enlightenment. By helping you to gain strength of character and confidence, your skills should give you peace of mind, therefore eliminating insecurity and giving you the capacity to be at peace and in harmony with others.
I hope you enjoy and benefit from our web page. It is my hope that it will help you on the most important battlefield... Life !!!
Sincerely,
Grandmaster Philip Holder, PhD

IPON

Punkmonk -(assuming this was in response to my statement) I didn't ask you to agree or disagree with anything. My point was regarding your topic of WC, I too am a WC stylist. If you are discussing WC just discuss that when you start by comparing styles especially when you had such a strong opinion of oneit detracts from from your post.

Regarding the close door match I would agree if this were a chinese match up. I would find it hard to believe that any Gracie would have a closed door match as they would want the world to know of there victory. The cultural honor system is not the same. As I said, this was supposed to happed between emin and some Gracie but never occurred there are letters flying around the internet (ThiBri actually may have copies if you ask). I don't know if this was the match you were referring to but if so you may need to question the validity of your sifu's information.

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

punkmonk

Don't worry about the Gracies and Emin.

punkmonk

I realize that about my post. I've had several people state that WC is crap and that MMA an BJJ is the top arts. Responding to their comments was probably a mistake. My view on BJJ has stood since they first came out. I was studying Japanes Ju-Jitsu at the time and the techniques used in BJJ are not techniques that I consider useful in a street confrontation.
Too much time spent on one attacker. One on one in a ring it's great. It seems to have been designed for UFC and sport, in this regard it is a strong art. It depends on what you are training for.

jubaji

Then go! No one here will miss you.

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

Thai Bri

I am not a particular "backer" of BJJ or MMA, though I certainly think they have their uses.

Unlike WC.

Once again folks, the "evidence" of Wing Chun / Tsun is a mysterious closed door fight where there is nothing to say that it actually took place.

Why do people believe this bollocks? Why do WC people want to shout about how their art can defeat others..... yet only ever "prove" it behind closed doors?

Beats the hell outta me. Unlike my WC instructor years ago who tried to humiliate me in class by smacking me round the chops. He didn't take the return favour very well at all......

Toudiyama[NL]

WC (VC/VT/WT or whatever way you want to write it)
the MA urban legend generator
Alway ready to claim they are better then others but never prepared to prove it in public ( I think the reason why the Boztepe-Gacie fight never took place)
And even if they tape something, they seem to see things other can't ( Boztepe/Cheung "fight")

Now we could blame all of WC for it but personally I think it is Boztepe
His actions and his words aren't always the same ("I'm not looking for trouble" after he went to a cafe filled with nazi skinheads and started a fight)

Oh wait, Boztepe is in punkmoonk's lineage, explains a lot

__________________