BadgerFu57

what are the main differences between modern judo and judo as it was 100 years ago? people say things have changed....

__________________
Kodoku So Tsuyoya Ni Kaete

Szczepankiewicz

Nope.

Nothing has changed.

Everything is exactly the same.

End of discussion.

Thread closed...

Ok, just kidding.

However, if you use the B word in this thread I will lock it down and chastize the lot of ya!

Spanky

Thai Bri

Kodokan Judo was meant to be a self defence art,not a sport. It included strikes also. Nasty ones.

Techniques that were "dangerous" were not taken out, they were just practised under more controlled conditions.

It was an art that aimed to produce fighters, not players.

Greenthink

The Evolutuion of Judo Contest Rules by Neil Ohlenkamp

http// judo infomation site.com

Greenthink

1899 Banned Locks of fingers ,toes wrists and ankles

1916 Knee entanglements twisting knee locks and
body scissors banned

1925 Joint locks and attacks were limited to elbow



Is Bjj just old fashioned Judo?

Greenthink

You are wrong, You have it exactly backwards.What is your source?
In the book Kodokan Judo, Kano's own words are "Physical Education". Chapter Two is even titled "Physical Education".

You know,gym class.

Thai Bri

How is that "exactly backwards" Kevin?

Greenthink

" Judo, because it had it's origin in a period of time which was virtually feudalistic, has become somewhat contaminated with an obfuscatory aura of feudalistic mumbo-jumbo,with the result that subsequent teachers, for various reasons, have insisted on treating judo as a feudalistic,esoteric 'art' and have taught it as such,mistaking the original or early enviromental manifestations of the training as the essence of the skill.In an attempt to substantiate such an approach these teachers have 'nudged' historical events somewhat out of context to support this interpretation. For example, Kano( the founder of judo)was made out to be a little man inspired to overcome the bully, which he then passed on to a few 'enlightened' followers. When the truth is known,Kano was one of Japan's most brilliant educationalists, who not only saw the need for a national sport( with as many recreational as patriotic benefits),but was visionary enough to see how such a sport might develop and possibly even attract people other then the Japanese.Judo was his own contribution to the overall fitness and recreational enjoyment of his countrymen. It had no connection with self-defence or jui-jitsu.
A careful study of its underlying priciples will prove that.It was intended solely to fill a gap in the physical, recreational and educational requirements of a people needing to play purposely and beneficially. He did not attach any grandiose pseudo-philosophic trappings to the sport; he intended it simply as a physical developer. If the individual could acquire satisfaction and self- expression from the training, then judo had more then acheived its original task".


From ; "Judo For The West" 1967
Pages 13-14
by G.R.Gleeson
Former National Coach
British Judo Association
Cheif Instructor of the Budokwai
First special research student
of the Kodokan

Thai Bri

First Special Research Student of the Kodokan?

Whats that supposed to mean?

Greenthink

G.R.Gleeson Born 1927. First appearance in British team 1949.Finalist in Open and 3rd Dan European Championships 1951
Cheif Instructor of the Budokwai 1955-1960.Captain of first team to win European Championship for Britain 1957;caaptain of various teams 1949-1957.Served on Executive Committee of British Judo Association 1955-60
First special research student of the Kodokan(Tokyo)
1952-1955. During this period also studied kendo, aikido and calligraphy. Originally trained as an engineer,holds higher National Certificate of Engineering.Read Japanese at London University 1955-1958.Honorary National coach 1958-60. Full-time national coach 1960--?

Evidently studied at the Kodokan in Tokyo for 3 or 4 years.

IPON

Soooooooooo the answer to Bri's question is...............????????

I assume this means that he was the first non Japanese judo research at the Kodokan.

If it were just a sport, why have the challenge matches with Jujitsu schools. The purpose of a challenge is to prove the superiority of a MA style. My understanding is the first version was meant not only a MA also a safer way to practice jujitsu and to end all of the bloody challenge matches between schools. Later, yes, he focused on the sport aspect and tailored the style for sport.

Below are quotes from Jigaro Kano that basically state in the late 1800's Judo was a MA.

Page 18-19.

“Or suppose that my opponent leans forward a bit and pushes me with one hand. This puts him off balance. If I grab him by the upper sleeve of his out stretched arm, pivot so that my back is close to his chest, clamp my free hand on his shoulder and suddenly bend over, he will go flying over my head and land flat on his back”

“As these examples show, for the purpose of throwing an opponent the principle of leverage is sometimes more important than giving way. Jujutsu also includes other forms of direct attack, such as hitting, kicking, slashing and choking. In this respect, the “art of giving way” does not convey the true meaning. If we accept Jujutsu as the art or practice of making the most efficient use of mental and physical energy, then we can think of judo as the way, the principle, of doing this, and we arrive at a true definition.”

“In 1882 I founded the Kodokan to teach judo to others. Within a few years, the number of students rapidly increased. They came from all over Japan, many having left Jujutsu masters to train with me. Eventually judo displaced jujutsu in Japan, and no one any longer speaks of jujutsu as a contemporary art in Japan, although the word has survived overseas.”

It is clear that Kano is describing SD and Judo and a MA. Students would not leave their masters for a sport, especially when there was not sport at the time.


Page 20

“Encouraged by my success in applying the principles of maximum efficiency to the techniques of attack and defense, I then asked if the same principle could not be applied to the improvement of health, that is, to physical education.”

Here it is clear that Kano is looking at judo for health and recreation, the origins of sport start here. But this is well after the Kodokan has been established.

But as always we can agree to disagree.

Reference: Kodokan Judo, edited under supervision of Kodokan Editorial Committee, 1986, revised from the first edition 1956

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

Greenthink

Sport.It's all just sport still anyway. That's why its called sudden death.
(Ippon)
They fight because its a sport not because they are mad at each other.
Funny we argue about whether it is a sport or self defence.Same thing no matter how you look at it.All sports I think historically
involve fighting or hunting. How about football.They used human heads back in England for kicking around. Animals use sport to train their young.In the first Olympics some wrestler ripped the other wrestlers heart out,just for fun.How about the Roman gladiators and feeding christian to lions .It was all for fun in the coliseum

But Kano was the consumate ameteur athlete.He is pictured in the background at the 1936 Berlin olympics,when Jesse Owens was on the reveiwing stand accepting his gold medal,there was Kano seated on the reveiwing stand about ten feet away. And Kano died enroute to Japan after learning WWII was canceling the 1940 Tokyo Olympics. I think that they were going to introduce judo as a Olympic sport that year as is the host countries privilege.

Thai Bri

Funny how being big in the world of sport Judo somehow qualifies a person for commenting on non sport Judo.

Its like saying "Karate is more effective than Thai Boxing. I am the First Special Research Student of Thai Boxing, and I have the qualifications in Karate to prove it". (but I haven't done Thai Boxing......)

Nonsense.

BadgerFu57

BJJ and Judo seem to have one main difference.... besides the rules.

Judo is centered more on stand-up grappling while Jiu-Jitsu is mostly on teh ground.

__________________
Kodoku So Tsuyoya Ni Kaete

IPON

Badger I think that early Judo was focused more on the ground and looked alot like BJJ. I just read in Renzo Gracie's book about Kosen Judo and that groundfighting was used alot. But these techniques were removed by Kano since, in the develpoment of the sport, he felt the ground game would be boring for the crowds, as he was correct but I think Judo sufferd for it in terms of completness.

I am starting to truely believe that BJJ is really BJudo as Judo was originaly taught. If I am correct the point wpould be noty that BJJ is so revolutionary (not taking anything away from the gracies) but that Judo is not practiced with the completness of the original style. So this was Kano's brilliance and error at teh same time

__________________
A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure