Katas - they do have a place !!

nolimitskarate · 11-20-2003, 03:32 PM

There are several benefits to forms if practiced correctly and consistently.

First off forms are great from a health and fitness aspect. For the beginner, forms are an excellent way to begin developing coordination – which most of us can use quite a bit of work on (natural athletes and dancers aside). Forms are also a great way of getting in shape and developing stamina. If done properly forms work and tone practically all major muscle groups (especially the legs) and provide a great cardiovascular workout. Finally, forms can be a great stress reliever – which, again, I believe most of us could use a good deal of.

As far as practical application there are several aspects of forms that must be considered.

Most importantly, the consistent practice of forms trains the body and mind to work together. When you are confronted in a street situation, you don’t have time to think you must be able to instantly. This does not mean that I would start walking through a form (i.e., Karate Kid II); however the techniques that have been practiced in a form can be applied to many different situations and should be able to be applied instinctively. Remember – mind and body working together.

The learning of the form in and of itself does not provide this level of response – it is the study and practice of the Bunkai – or application – of the form that allows this instinctive response. When you are practicing your form individually you must be able to visualize your opponent in each step of the form and actual “feel” the technique as you practice it. Also – it is important to practice the bunkai with a partner, or even several partners to get a more realistic feel for the application of the techniques.

It is very easy to “learn” the movements of a form in a couple of months (or even weeks) – there is a reason, however, that the application of a form was studied and practiced for long periods of time, sometimes years, before a “student” could be considered proficient enough to move on to another form.

Thoughts ?????

Toudiyama[NL] · 11-21-2003, 01:45 AM

in the early times of Karate, kata was trained differently, you would train a sequence of it and strait away train it's applications

Kata were the way to train these applications without a partner

**Thai Bri** · 11-21-2003, 06:31 AM

God no. Not the old "Kata are good for you" routine again. How desperate do you have to be to pretend that this pre set, robotic dance, punching and kicking at thin air, is ANYTHING like preparation for fighting?

nolimitskarate · 11-21-2003, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thai Bri
God no. Not the old "Kata are good for you" routine again. How desperate do you have to be to pretend that this pre set, robotic dance, punching and kicking at thin air, is ANYTHING like preparation for fighting?

God Yes - Kata is good for you from a physical finess aspect - I enjoy being in shape and believe that anything that improves your physical or mental well being is a positive thing - period.

As for preparing to fight - I agree with you in that the practice of the kata in and of itself does not necessarily teach you how to "fight", this does not make them irrelevent, howevor. The purpose of the kata is to teach you the holds, strikes, blocks, etc and how they are applied, and to train the body and mind to work togethor. Taking it a step further and finding ways to utilize the tecniques in other forms of training and making them relevent to todays world is perhaps the harder and applicable aspect of martial arts training.

I believe that there are several ways to train in each is relevent in different ways and different situations - to focus on just one aspect of training is short sighted - the more tools you have in yor arsenal the better off you are.

Realistically - if I were going to throw down and scrap with someone I would tend more towards the kickboxing aspect of my training, but this does not apply to all cases.

In a pure self-defense situation my goal is to eliminate the aggresor as quickly as possible and get out. Trading punches with someone for 10 minutes to prove I'm a better fighter just doesn't fit the bill. I will use whatever techniques necessary and most applicable based on the severity of the situation to defend myself or my family and I'll take whatever advantages I have to get there.

-------------/ Respect

Szczepankiewicz · 11-21-2003, 10:35 AM

Let me start off by stating that I agree with a lot of what you said.

Quote:

the more tools you have in your arsenal the better off you are.

However, this is not necessarily always the case.

I've seen many katas performed wherein' the practitioner was under the impression that they were ready, after years of kata, to deal death without ever having hit anyone.

I agree that kata is essential for the preservation of TMA, and it can be a useful training tool for many of the reasons you mentioned, however this tool's usefulness is based heavily on the perspective of one's individual training goals.

Spanky

nolimitskarate · 11-21-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Let me start off by stating that I agree with a lot of what you said.

However, this is not necessarily always the case.

I've seen many katas performed wherein' the practitioner was under the impression that they were ready, after years of kata, to deal death without ever having hit anyone.

I agree that kata is essential for the preservation of TMA, and it can be a useful training tool for many of the reasons you mentioned, however this tool's usefulness is based heavily on the perspective of one's individual training goals.

Spanky

Agreed - Just practicing the kata for the sake of practicing the kata does not make you ready - you must be able to understand and apply the techniques - you have to make them your own and find ways to work them into your every day training to make them more "real"..

**Thai Bri** · 11-21-2003, 02:24 PM

How can anyone believe this nonsense?

Yes. Kata would probably be good aerobic training to an extent. Though nowhere near as good as going for a run. And bagwork/sparring etc is even better if your goal is improving fighting ability. So, its may have some positive effect but, given the options, its a waste of time. Unless you want to win a Kata competition.

"The purpose of the kata is to teach you the holds, strikes, blocks, etc and how they are applied, and to train the body and mind to work togethor."

No. You do not learn "how they are applied" when you are not applying them to anything. Its like an apprentice joiner standing up and pushing his empty hand backwards and forwards. Is he learning to saw wood?

"Realistically - if I were going to throw down and scrap with someone I would tend more towards the kickboxing aspect of my training, but this does not apply to all cases."

No, not all cases. You may need to grapple too, or pick up a weapon of some sort. But I take it you're implying that Kata will give you some kind of extra option. Would you care to tell me what it is? Or are you going to be sawing mythical wood with a mythical saw again?

"In a pure self-defense situation my goal is to eliminate the aggresor as quickly as possible and get out."

True.

"Trading punches with someone for 10 minutes to prove I'm a better fighter just doesn't fit the bill."

True.

"I will use whatever techniques necessary and most applicable based on the severity of the situation to defend myself or my family and I'll take whatever advantages I have to get there."

True.

All these true statements. All that is lacking is the explanation of how waving your arms and legs about in thin air has any relevance to these statements.

Get a saw. Get some wood. Get some idea.

**Thai Bri** · 11-21-2003, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nolimitskarate
Agreed - Just practicing the kata for the sake of practicing the kata does not make you ready - you must be able to understand and apply the techniques - you have to make them your own and find ways to work them into your every day training to make them more "real"..

You're supposed to train in methods that work, so that you can save your skin one day - you are not supposed to find ways of making those training methods work. That "need" you have is born out of the fact that they are NOT efficient training methods.

Wake up and smell the freshly sawn wood.

nolimitskarate · 11-21-2003, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thai Bri

Yes. Kata would probably be good aerobic training to an extent. Though nowhere near as good as going for a run. And bagwork/sparring etc is even better if your goal is improving fighting ability. So, its may have some positive effect but, given the options, its a waste of time. Unless you want to win a Kata competition.

Agreed that running, bagwork and sparring are excellent for conditioning (I do them all) - howevor - Kata also builds strenght and stamina in the legs as well as toning major muscle groups. I don't have the time or desire to lift weights - so this helps offset that portion of my regimine. I'm not looking to bulk up - just stay toned - to each there own.

Again, I don't believe that any activity that improves your mental or physical well being is a waste of time.

(And yes I do win Kata Competitions but that is not my primary goal in practicing forms.)

Quote:

Originally posted by Thai Bri
All these true statements. All that is lacking is the explanation of how waving your arms and legs about in thin air has any relevance to these statements.

Get a saw. Get some wood. Get some idea.

K - the statement waving your arms and legs around implies that you are flailing like an idiot - your motions and movements are not controlled and in that case are indeed useless.

Point in fact - the movements in a form are very direct and controlled and help the student understand there purpose and application - it's just one more way of training.

ryanhall · 11-21-2003, 05:07 PM

This is an extremely tired debate, gents. It's about we move onto something else more productive. Nobody is convincing anybody of anything, and there have been too many threads devoted to this back and forth junk.

Szczepankiewicz · 11-21-2003, 05:13 PM

It's especially fun when you quote the other guys entire post.

Pr0Deus · 11-21-2003, 06:08 PM

kata is just on way of practiseing different techniques.
of course you can learn to punch just by hiting tin air.
it is just that to hit some ting ( like a bag ) is even better.
the best ting to do when you want to learn to punch some one is to punch real people.

so i think kata is a less effective way of practiseing techniques when campared to more modern ways. the best way to learn to fight street fights is to fight street fights often. and the closest posible form of controled practise.

Pr0Deus

Szczepankiewicz · 11-21-2003, 06:11 PM

Quote:

the best way to learn to fight street fights is to fight street fights often

Yeah, and go to jail.

What excellent advice...

Greenthink · 11-21-2003, 08:43 PM

Yeah but you get to bXX alot in kata's !

BAN THE B-WORD

Katas are an attempt at a training method.
More ceremony then substance.
Its definately not dynamic movement. There seems to be a wide gulf between the competitors and those that do kata.Is that generally true? Which comes first the chicken or the egg? I mean maybe katas cause people to not do well at competition. Or is it people that do kata are not generally competitive or sports oriented (uncordinated types but they still enjoy what they can do. Maybe Kata are the art, but not recognized as such because of their lack of dynamic movement they lack asthetic appeal?

Anyway .........

**Thai Bri** · 11-21-2003, 09:02 PM

Kata tones Jack Shit.

And you seem to really think that controlled movement, without a saw, will help you saw wood.

Ryan, of course its a tired debate. Bringing enlightenedment to the masses is not going to be easy. Leave it with me to carry the torch.

11-20-2003, 03:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
nolimitskarate Novice Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 106 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Katas - they do have a place !! There are several benefits to forms if practiced correctly and consistently. First off forms are great from a health and fitness aspect. For the beginner, forms are an excellent way to begin developing coordination – which most of us can use quite a bit of work on (natural athletes and dancers aside). Forms are also a great way of getting in shape and developing stamina. If done properly forms work and tone practically all major muscle groups (especially the legs) and provide a great cardiovascular workout. Finally, forms can be a great stress reliever – which, again, I believe most of us could use a good deal of. As far as practical application there are several aspects of forms that must be considered. Most importantly, the consistent practice of forms trains the body and mind to work together. When you are confronted in a street situation, you don’t have time to think you must be able to instantly. This does not mean that I would start walking through a form (i.e., Karate Kid II); however the techniques that have been practiced in a form can be applied to many different situations and should be able to be applied instinctively. Remember – mind and body working together. The learning of the form in and of itself does not provide this level of response – it is the study and practice of the Bunkai – or application – of the form that allows this instinctive response. When you are practicing your form individually you must be able to visualize your opponent in each step of the form and actual “feel” the technique as you practice it. Also – it is important to practice the bunkai with a partner, or even several partners to get a more realistic feel for the application of the techniques. It is very easy to “learn” the movements of a form in a couple of months (or even weeks) – there is a reason, however, that the application of a form was studied and practiced for long periods of time, sometimes years, before a “student” could be considered proficient enough to move on to another form. Thoughts ????? __________________ "Understand Your Limits - Then Shatter Them !!"

11-21-2003, 01:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
Toudiyama[NL] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Zaandam, Netherlands Posts: 1,389 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	in the early times of Karate, kata was trained differently, you would train a sequence of it and strait away train it's applications Kata were the way to train these applications without a partner __________________

11-21-2003, 05:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
ryanhall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,247 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is an extremely tired debate, gents. It's about we move onto something else more productive. Nobody is convincing anybody of anything, and there have been too many threads devoted to this back and forth junk. __________________ "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

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11-21-2003, 06:31 AM	#3 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	God no. Not the old "Kata are good for you" routine again. How desperate do you have to be to pretend that this pre set, robotic dance, punching and kicking at thin air, is ANYTHING like preparation for fighting?

11-21-2003, 02:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	How can anyone believe this nonsense? Yes. Kata would probably be good aerobic training to an extent. Though nowhere near as good as going for a run. And bagwork/sparring etc is even better if your goal is improving fighting ability. So, its may have some positive effect but, given the options, its a waste of time. Unless you want to win a Kata competition. "The purpose of the kata is to teach you the holds, strikes, blocks, etc and how they are applied, and to train the body and mind to work togethor." No. You do not learn "how they are applied" when you are not applying them to anything. Its like an apprentice joiner standing up and pushing his empty hand backwards and forwards. Is he learning to saw wood? "Realistically - if I were going to throw down and scrap with someone I would tend more towards the kickboxing aspect of my training, but this does not apply to all cases." No, not all cases. You may need to grapple too, or pick up a weapon of some sort. But I take it you're implying that Kata will give you some kind of extra option. Would you care to tell me what it is? Or are you going to be sawing mythical wood with a mythical saw again? "In a pure self-defense situation my goal is to eliminate the aggresor as quickly as possible and get out." True. "Trading punches with someone for 10 minutes to prove I'm a better fighter just doesn't fit the bill." True. "I will use whatever techniques necessary and most applicable based on the severity of the situation to defend myself or my family and I'll take whatever advantages I have to get there." True. All these true statements. All that is lacking is the explanation of how waving your arms and legs about in thin air has any relevance to these statements. Get a saw. Get some wood. Get some idea.

11-21-2003, 05:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	It's especially fun when you quote the other guys entire post.

11-21-2003, 06:08 PM	#12 (permalink)
Pr0Deus Novice Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 3 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	kata is just on way of practiseing different techniques. of course you can learn to punch just by hiting tin air. it is just that to hit some ting ( like a bag ) is even better. the best ting to do when you want to learn to punch some one is to punch real people. so i think kata is a less effective way of practiseing techniques when campared to more modern ways. the best way to learn to fight street fights is to fight street fights often. and the closest posible form of controled practise. Pr0Deus

11-21-2003, 08:43 PM	#14 (permalink)
Greenthink Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: minneaplois minnesota Posts: 111 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yeah but you get to bXX alot in kata's ! BAN THE B-WORD Katas are an attempt at a training method. More ceremony then substance. Its definately not dynamic movement. There seems to be a wide gulf between the competitors and those that do kata.Is that generally true? Which comes first the chicken or the egg? I mean maybe katas cause people to not do well at competition. Or is it people that do kata are not generally competitive or sports oriented (uncordinated types but they still enjoy what they can do. Maybe Kata are the art, but not recognized as such because of their lack of dynamic movement they lack asthetic appeal? Anyway .........

11-21-2003, 09:02 PM	#15 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kata tones Jack Shit. And you seem to really think that controlled movement, without a saw, will help you saw wood. Ryan, of course its a tired debate. Bringing enlightenedment to the masses is not going to be easy. Leave it with me to carry the torch.

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