Thai Bri

Well then, thats settled. Kata IS better than absolutely no training whatsoever. Fine, I'll fall over myself to agree. But so is playing Croquet, Darts and Snooker. But those players don't keep telling everyone that ythey are learning how to fight.

And for people who ARE learning to fight (i.e. not the irrelevant couch potatoes that you have introduced into the conversation) Kata is harmful to their development. It teaches people how to do ity incorrectly.

As for my tone...... Thats the main resaon I'm loved.

Szczepankiewicz

Amen. Can I get ah AMEN!??

That man has spoke the Gospel!

Hallelujah!

You know that's why I love you, my friend!

****

I agree with Bitty on this thought. I don't do kata to learn how to fight. There are myriad reasons why I do do kata. Learning to fight is not on that list.

Kata has to do with the art. Exercising the art.

I learn how to fight by fighting (full contact randori). I do not learn how to fight by breaking the boards, hitting the bags, reading the books or doing kata.

Only in full speed full contact unstable environmental conditions can you even begin to approach the Evil Shitstorm of the 'Dreaded Streets'. And even then you're missing the mark.

However, I still do kata, for exercise, practicing the techniques, the flow, the movement, the art.... but never, ever under the impression that I'm 'learning to fight.'

Kata benefits are ancillary at best, and there are many downsides (as Bitty has mentioned) to doing kata, especially if that's ALL you do.

I remain,

Kata Rules!

Toudiyama[NL]

Kata were fighting forms in their original form when they were taught together with the bunkai and henka
Then the forms and the application looked the same
Itosu introduced the walking up and down basics and got rid of the bunkai, so he could introduce it at the high schools
Now the likes of Funakoshi made the mistake to stick to Karate is Kata and never taught any bunkai
This was were it went wrong because the bunkai were supposed to be instructed if the students would stick after high school, but this never happened
What did happen was that offshoots of Itosu karate and funakoshi karate, were changing the forms to fit their principles but never had the bunkai in mind, later on students of these styles would make bunkai by reverse enginering, but using the changed techniques

This is why guys like ashihara started all over, taking practical fighting combos as the starting point, hence the kata of these styles look the same as the application

We are influenced by what we see at kata competition but these are rules by shotokan and shito stylist with maybe some gojukai
Katacompetition is show and has damaged the tool even more
we not the tool itself but the use of it

Kata can learn you how to fight but not as it is done in 80 % of the styles,
but still that doesn't make it useless as a tool as long as you know it doesn't kearn how to fight

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Thai Bri

Yeah yeah yeah.

Desperate!

Toudiyama[NL]

yeaAh ,yeah yeah, so are you to prove the supiriority of others by dissin' TMA

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sherwinc

Why is it that all the Kata's of karate and taek kwon do are the same or has a comparison, a stop by stop motion and not like those of kung kata's in a continuous execution not a stop by stop action.

then,

the kata's of karate and tae kwon do are stop by stop in motion while in sparring is full of jumping and no resemblance to the Kata.

as what the KungFu Maxim said that:
the Kata in martial arts is like your BLUE PRINT. Whatever your kata is the way you fight. If i see your kata it means thats the way you fight. I know how you fight if i see your kata especially your highest kata. but in karate and tae kwon do is full of jumping while their kata is a stop by stop movement.

Kung fu is the best cause our kata or set patterns is in a continuous movement and not a stop-by-stop or pause by pause.

Szczepankiewicz

Kung fu is the best huh?

Toudiyama[NL]

Sorry but it depends, there are kung fu styles that are just as rigid

(Táng shou tao), the most flowing forms are those of tai chi and ba kua, the internal styles, but karate didn't come from the internal styles

The Shaolin docus show the same stop motion forms as in karate

But this was never a karate vs Kung fu thread, I just pointed out that the most used argument against karate was it not being present in MMA events, which is nonsense because they are there, on the other hand kung fu guys aren't there but barely got points as useless

I would like to see how a ba kua stylist would fare against a kyokushin karateka

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Thai Bri

I don't need to disrespect the TMAs to feel superior. It comes naturally to me anyway.

sherwinc

Why is it that the Japanese Karate handled the samurai sword in a two hand? while in chinese sword, west fencing, Filipino Kali, muslim kris, and even vikings or all except japanese karate samurai - they use to hold samurai sword in a two handed. or, they can't use the samurai sword in a single handed?

Thai Bri

They dont use a sword in Karate.

William Eriepa

"Karate aint so bad"

As a fighting method or art, I have to disagree partly. There are certain aspects of karate that just don't work as a fighting method, to mention a few, punches from the hips, badly telegraphed knife hand swings, some really gay blocks , and particularly in Kyokushin, the emphasis put on that you fight toe to toe with your opponent as you trade blows with each other, never backing down. But don't get me wrong, karate is far from usless, there are things that are very effective (kicks to the groin never hurt, well not you anyway).

Kata is ineffective in the ring, in the streets, and in no way reflects real world fights.
Kata is effective for getting your next belt, practicing (good or bad) techniques, paying homage to the art, paying homage to the ancestors, competiton Kata, aerobic workouts, probably a few other things, losing weight.
Use Kata in a ring, hope you don't plan to be the next world champ. Use Kata on the street, good luck, hope you don't get too fucked up. But seriously, if I were in a real fight, and the guy started to pull out his kata to beat me the only chance he'd have of winning is me dying from laughter. Kata is impractical and uneffective for fighting.
Just to point out, Kata is no where near sparing. There are many differences I could tell, but just to highlight the major ones.. In sparing your target will move in unexpected directions versus the set patterns that your invisible friend moves in Kata. In sparring when trying to offload a blow to a particular area of the body you will notice that these areas are not stationary but moving versus your invisible Kata friend who stands stationary whilst you offload a blow. You feel what is it to give a hit and take a hit versus you hitting your airsoft™ invisible kata friend that never seems to hit back. Sparring more correctly aligns your neuromuscular pathways. So as you can see the benefits of sparring are not always found in Kata, yet the benefits of Kata can be found in sparring, so it makes no sense to do this impractical art for fight training. Kata is not a sparing alternative.
I would say this, that Kata is an art of it's own, like marching in the army, I wouldn't say it's a fighting art. Kata to me always felt ritualistic.

Karate fighters in K-1, about this. Fighters like Filho, Greco, Musashi to name a few, all consider their roots to be in Karate for whatever reason, and thats obviously the banner they fight under. But don't be confused, these guys do not practice pure Karate in the ring. All these guys have vastly improved their hands, their stances and kicks and many other things to suit the ring. All these guys have had boxing coaches, and have modified their guards to protect the head. Musashi had been working alot with Frankie Lyles (WBA Champ) before K-1 final. So although these guys are Karate fighters at heart, do not be mistaken in thinking that everything these guys are is from Karate, because to do so is just ignorance.

Martial Arts stems from fighting, from warring. Thats what martial arts was created for, a systematic way to learn how to fight. A view on how to fight if you would. Martial arts were practiced with the intent that you were learning how to fight or to fight.
An ice skater practices ice skating, with the intent to ice skate.
A fisherman practices fishing, with the intent to fish.
A racecar driver practices racing, with the intent to race.
A martial artist, practices martial arts, with the intent to fight.
When you practice an art, your intent should be what it was created for. So a martial artists practition of the martial arts should be soley for the purpose of fighting. However this is not always the case, and thats fine as well, martial arts can be a benefit for many different intentions, just as other arts can.
However when one says "that aspect of that martial art is ineffective!" it should be known that he/she is most likely referring to the original intention of the art and not cardio .

sherwinc

You are 101% correct,

another thing is, in kata of karate is full of stop-by-stop motion while in sparring is full of jumping back and forth, no signs of blocking.

You know - kata is your blueprint in true fighting, so, whatever your kata is thats the way you fight, especially those in 1st kata - the Kihon Kata no. 1 which is purely all Lung Punch and downward block and upward block, i cannot use this first kata in a surprice attack with my enemy.

while in chinese martial arts especially the northern style of lohan for example, the first kata is - wow, many many options ;-)

fcokeefe

Thai Bri is right about kata. You can't learn to fight with kata. Karate is not a wasted form of MA, it just needs to catch up some. I started in Kenpo, and I still enjoy doing the forms, for fun. All forms of MA need to be evaluated every 10 to 15 years or so just to be updated for the changes in society. People don't fight the way they did 20 years ago, much less 50 or 100 or even 200 years ago, or even have the same morals in there daily lives. Even water becomes stale (non potable) if it sits stagnant to long, it must flow to stay alive just as the MA must flow and change to stay alive. Change must come to all things, and if change does not come to all thing they will die(not to sound prophectic, I mean pathetic or anything).

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"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him" Mark Twain

Toudiyama[NL]

Japanese Karate Samurai?, Karate and Samurai have nothing to do with eachother, Karate is a civil defence art

Most of the swords ylou mention are shorter or thinner than a katana
An european broadsword is 2 handed too

not all samurai used it 2 handed, nitto ryu used 2 swords, bit of a hassle to have 2 2handed swords

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