Toudiyama[NL]

A lot of people seeem to think Karate is useless, I beg to differ
The K1 Final was between Musashi and Bonjaski, Karate vs MT even though Musashi lost, I think only a fool will say Musashi was defenceless
If Karate was so useless and ineffective Musashi wouldn't even have made it to the finals, the semi final he beat Aerts, former K1 champ

Musashi is a Seidokaikan karateka

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Thai Bri

You're sounding pretty desperate. Did he get his skills by doing Kata and punching thin air?

Toudiyama[NL]

Why do you keep going on like a broken record, he is a karateka, maybe not what you have in mind as karate, but it is Karate

Besides MT/kickboxers punch thin air too
Unless you talk about fighting and then you are way off by just targeting one kind of Karate, the WKF/ITKF kind of Karate that is now olympic
Olimpic as in boxers with headprotection

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Thai Bri

I'm not the one who keeps posting these desperate threads. Go and do a Kata or something, to spiritually lift you to Buddha. But watch out, he may kick your ass!

Toudiyama[NL]

sorry ...KEEP posting this thread? This is the first thread about this, which is a reaction to the many karate is useless threads

And yes I do kata, the ones from ashihara, if you have never seen those, first try to do so before you judge them, these are done excatly the same with or without oponent, and consiste of short combos in several direction
Nothing wrong with those

Kata is suposed to be a tool to train the same stuff without having an oponent to train with


How would one train without having an oponent or a heavy bag, do nothing anymore because Bri doesn't like to punch thin air

not every style of karate has the same forms, most of the Kyokushin offshoots have designed practical forms instead

And Musashi is training on of those offshoots

If you are being honest you must have noticed that the two arts dominating K1 are MT and Karate, not kung fu or American kickboxing

Still you and others think Karate is more useless than kungfu ( look at the poll)


Heck traditional bashing has become an artform here
but if you look at the first UFC's when everybody was still doing their art , a couple of MT guys got beat by tradtionalist ( darn that korean sylist with his barage of elbows)
But of coarse that was 10 years ago that doesn't count


Tunnelvision is what most of these bashers have, who's best argument for karate being useless seems to be that you never see a karateka or traditionalist in UFC or Pride

Contrary to MT people I'm not claiming karate is the best, it is just not useless as people claim

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Thai Bri

Why do you feel the need to keep telling us? It seems like insecurity to me. But you have such massive logical flaws in your argument.

"I do Katas from Ashihara" etc. You mean the guy who's changed lots of Karate? You're using him to promote Karate? Duuuuurrrrrrr, the guy who changes it? Why do you think he's changed it, Numb Nuts?

"How would one train without having an oponent or a heavy bag, do nothing anymore because Bri doesn't like to punch thin air"

I've often stated the benefits of Shadow Boxing. But, like you say, so that when you have no opponent or any equipment to hit. To do it when you DO have those things (beyond mere warming up) is madness.

Karate dominates K1? Maybe it does, I haven't seen it. Tell me about their hands at the hips. Tell me how they use Karate blocks. Oops, they don't. Because they've massively adapted it.

Korean stylist in early UFC? You mean Pat Smith and Kimo no doubt. Did you see those fights? Neither did anything remotely resembling TKD, although that is the banner they chose to fight under. Smith got leathered by the NON traditional stylists anyway, and he fell over himself to learn grappling (didn't help him against Royce Gracie). Who did he beat with his barrage of elbows? A BLEEDIN NINJA! HAW HAW HAW! Hardly someone from the more progressive arts was he? Kimo looked roided up fer Jesus. He fought like a bear! He did not, however, use anything faintly resembling TKD. And how did Karate fair when the guys DID try to use it? BLEEDIN RIDICULOUSLY UNBELIEVEABLY BADLY! HAW HAW HAW!

To claim earlyy UFCs demonstrate the effectiveness of Karate is very true. Anyone using anything faintly resembling Karate methods fought like a knob and hit the deck.

One of us really does have tunnel vision.....

ipscshooter

Thai Bri:

Why do you keep having to put down kata work? At times, your rants against using katas in training sound like you think that they are the only things done in a typical Karate or Tae Kwon Do class, and that practitioners of those arts expect to become accomplished UFC fighters merely by the practice of katas. Based upon our classes, that is not the case.

I practice ITF style TKD, and the instructor teaches a very traditional curriculum. We begin classes with some stretching and calisthentics, do a little "air-punching" for warm up, and then, depending on the curriculum for the evening, we will work on katas for a little while, or defense/counter combinations with a partner. Then we will do heavy bag work and sparring. We spar in virtually every class, and, in upper ranks, it's pretty much full contact, heavy hitting stuff.

Kata is used for warm-up/flexibility/balance/conditioning. They are also used as a step in the evaluation process for advancement in rank. And, while katas may include punching from the hip, etc., no one actually spars that way. I think we deem the kata work more as maintaining the traditional art form, as we consider ourselves "martial artists". Perhaps those of you who eschew kata work should be referred to as "martialists".

Thai Bri

There are better ways to wamr-up/be flexible/improve balance/conditioning. far far better way. And, as for gradings, thats a circular argument. You should assess what you need to progress as a fighter, and then train to give you what you need. Not say "We do Kata" and then try to think of reasons as to why.

And I never said that classes consist only of Kata. But I do believe that Kata time is not only wasted time, it is also counter productive time.

If people really don't want to hear it, why do they keep starting threads about it?

Remember, I have been there. I have studied a TMA, and ponced about like a tit doing Kata. I rejected it. Spot the successful full contact/MMA fighters who use it, and let us all know who they are. I reckon you could probably find a few oddities that do, but they will be the exception rather than the rule.

KATA IS NOT EFFECTIVE FIGHT TRAINING.

Szczepankiewicz

Kata rules!

ipscshooter

Full contact? Easy to find one (and, as you state, probably an oddity). How about Chuck Norris? He was a full contact fighter quite some time ago with some degree of success, and his training was in Tang Soo Do, which, I believe, uses kata as a part of the training.

I'm not going to argue with your point that Kata, in and of itself, is not effective fight training. I have not had the vast experience that others here have. I've be in TKD for almost 5 years, and received my black belt about a year ago. I'm not deluded by that fact into thinking that I am now some sort of undefeatable fighting machine. But, in TKD, where my limited experience is, I can watch someone performing a kata, and can usually tell whether they are executing a technique properly, i.e. whether their kicks will be effective, whether their blocks will have the strength to effectively avert a strike, etc. You may very well be right that there are better training methods available. But, many of us are not in the martial arts SOLELY for the purpose of "fight training". I've never been in a "real" fight in my life, and after a 45+ year history of reasonably peaceful existence, I don't expect to be in one over the course of the next 30 or so years. Perhaps fight training is your sole reason for martial training. That's fine. More power to you. I got involved largely to spend time with my kids, who wanted to take lessons, and our instructor offered my lessons free with signing up my two sons. I also wanted and needed something that I could enjoy for exercise, and that would get my fat butt out of the lounge chair on a regular basis. I figured I'd stick with it until I earned a yellow or green belt. But, I grew to enjoy the lessons, and eventually determined to work toward achieving a black belt, believing that by sticking with the program, I could inspire my kids to stick with it, and perhaps provide them with some life lessons about perseverence, hard work, setting and achieving goals, etc.

With your broad experience, surely you are aware that not all martial artists participate solely for "fight training". Given this understanding, I cannot fathom why you should so regularly denigrate the training others chose? Why be so insulting about it? "Poncing about like a tit?" One of the qualities our instructor tries to teach is humility. It should be possible to make your argument without being quite so derogatory.

Thai Bri

This is where the argument always goes. Kata, and other TMA training is supposedly effective training. On and on people whine on about it. But, when they get in a corner..... When it is becoming obvious that many TMA practices are nothing to do with effective fighting..... these same people THEN say "but martial arts are not just about fighting you know......"

I know that many people find things to enjoy about martial arts that are not necessarily relevant to fighting. I just wish that they would admit it to themselves all the time, rather than spend the majority of the time trying to believe that these things ARE making them a better fighter.

Toudiyama[NL]

Every style changes the forms or has it's own, this is done because of other principles or other insights
Ashihara and the othe offshoots just made practical kata because the practicality of the old ones got lost to them
In Koryu Uchinadi they have spend 25 years of results to find the old applications back and still they are based on the agression found a century ago

In MT/Kickboxing we always did shadowboxing in front on the mirror to learn the combo's, they are warming up and learning at the same time
Hea guess what so is Kihon
Spending too much time on the basics is stupid, the name already tell you it should only be used as a basis for kumite kata should be to train the sequences from the kumite/tegumi-drills
In the Kyokushin Offshoots this is excactly the case, the kumite and the kata are the same
Block, punch, block, punch high round housekick, turn with the kick, repeat sequence to other side but with low kick, turn 90 degrees, and then follow sequences with knee's and elbows

They call themself Karate, who are you to say they aren't just because your experience was different
They create fighters like Greci (spelling) and Musashi

As for bag training, we even did that in Wado as well as training with kickingshield, driving in the low kick, acording to Rob Zwartjes, the highest ranked Wado instructor of the Netherlands early Wado matches had lowkicks and there is a kick made with the shin in the curriculum

Things like basics and forms aren't wrong by itself, it is the way they are used and the stress that it put on them, Shotokan overshot and made Kata somekind of end instead of a mere tool "Performed" in a way that makes me think of the Madonna song Vogue

Very often I would just skip the basics as knoow by most and would do basics with partner, forms I think I did that less than 50% of the trainings so less than 1:2
I was the teacher, it is up to me what we train and what not and how we train it, that's why we are trained to become a teacher
And that's why this training doesn't allow you to copy the method of your own teacher ( and in this small country they will recognize it)

crap is around in karate, but so in many other arts, I already stated, the more popular the more crap will come, MT and BJJ are no exceptions, their luck it the best of the bussiness compete, in other arts, onle a few of the best compete ( like Musashi and Greci)

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sherwinc

[quote=



Still you and others think Karate is more useless than kungfu ( look at the poll)


[/QUOTE]


yes, it depends on the person on how he trained himself but in the martial arts, if we compare karate vs kungfu, karate cannot match kung fu because kungfu has many options while karate is not. karate came from kungfu, 1 out of 10 the chinese teach the japanese only 3 in 1 out of 10. the it became karate. it's a small compare to kungfu. and besides karate is an only alphabet form of martial arts, you cannot proceed to words and also sentence. its not a scientific form of martial arts thats the reason why it's too far to compare karate with kungfu. and it's plenty of reasons why kung fu is the best.

Toudiyama[NL]

You lost me a bit on the 1 out of 10 and 3 in 1 out of 10

Karate came only from one or 2 styles of Gong fa in particular the white crane form, the bubishi ( bible of karate) seems to be the same book as used by these style
It has chapters about pressure points and herbal medicine as well as history

People think that karate is just a kick & punch art but it isn't, if you look at Koryu Uchinadi ( old Okinawan Martial Arts) you will see grabling is there, it was just get rid of by Itosu Yatsusune (Anko) in his desire to make it more simple, the goju side still has it but there too it got lost a bit during the migration to mainland Japan

As to Karate being the alphabet not learning you to make words or sentences, where do you base that on, the styles I mentioned are fighting styles, their only object is to teach how to fight

And where does Kung fu teach you that the average kung fu player is just as useless in the ring as the average karate player

the only kung fu player that seem to be able a bit are the san shou fighters

As the only Karateka that seem to be able are from Kyokushin or one of the offshoots

Your argument about karate being a simpler form are used by MT fighters too but the other way around, they claim Karate is too complex to learn it takes too long, now you are saying that even though kung fu is more complex, it is better than Karate, doesn't make sense does it, either it's the one or the other not both

If karate is useless because of its complexety, then Kung fu being more complex is more useless


BTW I mentioned this because the most used argument is that you do not see them in MMA events, well this is also true for kung fu but that didn't get any votes

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ipscshooter

Thai Bri: I'd suggest that these things ARE making them a better fighter than certain alternatives, for example, sitting on the couch in front of the television doing thumb exercises on the remote control. I'm not one of the people who has argued that doing katas, or punching air, is going to make one a great fighter. I don't doubt that there are much more effective ways to do so. But, it seems to me that kata training is more effective than doing nothing at all (although I've seen you argue the opposite). My main objection was to the harshness (and perhaps the frequency) of your tone in putting kata down as a training method. I haven't been on this board for long, but it seemed as if, in every thread containing the word "kata", you would include a diatribe on the stupidity of any person who ever even thought about doing a kata.

Sherwin: With regard to the Kung Fu/Karate argument, I believe it depends more on the practitioner than the style. My son, then a red belt in Tae Kwon Do, which many around here put down as the least effective art, beat three equivalent rank/age/size Wing Chun competitors in a tournament. With no rest between the matches, he won 3-0, 3-0, and 3-1.