martial_artist

I've been doing Bujinkan Ninjutsu for a year now, and I'm starting to question its effectivenss for self defense (or at least effectiveness as in time required to learn the techniques for usage). From the time we first started until now, we're still practicing in super slow motion. The attacker would attack (for example, punch) slowly, then I would block it and do a counter. We never do any sparing or even fast techniques in the air. And I'm going to class consistently. I'm wondering when someone actually attacks a Ninjutsu practitioner on the street, how would a person's skill work under this type of training environment?

Another important thing is that this art's emphasis is on body movement on self defense, which is mainly affecting the opponent's balance (which is like Tai Chi, I believe). I've been doing this art for a year now, and I still find it hard to get the opponent off balance a lot of the times. Sure, if we can get the opponent's balance, the technique's effective. But how does it work against someone who's actually trying to hurt you,in full speed? When we're actually attacked, we're under a large amount of stress, and most of us would be unable to execute these balance-based techniques easily. Someone who's trying to hurt you won't stay in one spot where you can find his weak line to throw him off balance.

I started this thread only because I find it very difficult to learn Ninjutsu, and hope to gain some insight. This is not in any way meant as a discussion for Ninjutsu bashing. All opinions are welcome, even the ones that may be offending to me.

As an aside, this art is hard to master and takes quite a bit of time to learn. How did the ancient Ninja warriors manage to learn Ninjutsu in time for battle? Training for 5-10 years for battle just isn't practical. Especially during war, where the size of the army is constantly being depleted.

SiouxDogEater

Just wondering where you are at. Who is teaching you. I am being trained by a former Bujinkan teacher. He trained under Bill Atkins, fomer body guard to the Dali Lama. He tells me that it was just part of training to be hit, punched, kicked, thrown and even knocked out. Using mostly slower speed but 3/4's strength. But also speed training so you actually know what you are deliveing and receiving.

Keep in mind that Ninjitsu works slow and fast. Of course, when you are in a real fight, all of your training will come to the surface. I know that in the Bujinkan they like to take their time with their students. My sensei spent about a year doing footwork, rolling and falling when he first started so that he could unlearn some of the things he learned in Kempo and other arts.
I've seen him spar with non BKNJ martial artists. I watch him and understand why he focuses on my ukemi, footwork and rolling so much. Wheather he is on his feet or not. He is comfortable on his feet or on the gorund. He takes the ground like it is his friend. He loves to let you feel that you have the upper hand. When that happens, he lets you do all the work to have you thrown, knocked out, put in a lock that makes you pass out, so on and so on.

It may take me a long time, but i want to be usefull in all the scrolls. He says i tend toward the water scroll but he does not want to put all my training in that area. We says, to make a balance between all five scrolls is to be ballanced. Ge says never have any biases in the scrolls. He says to build one scroll up is like builing a piller. Yes it reaches higher much faster, but it will also fall faster. To build all five pillers at the same time will take longer, but you will be more balanced and have firmer structure. IT also give you a full range of tools to pull from

Hope thats helps a little.

SiouxDogEater

Toudiyama[NL]

in the old days when ninja were still used ( the fudal times) one would be born into it, as a result training would start very early
thus by the time they reached adulthood they had years of training ( day in day out not 2X a week 2 hours)

As for the battlefield, ninja weren't for the batlefield they were more like special ops or the secret service

they performed nighttime raids and so on

__________________

SiouxDogEater

Woops!!! Sorry! I said Bill Atkins was the body gaurd for the Dali Lama. Wrong!!!. Bill learned under Steven Hays. He was the body gaurd.

Please excuse my mistake. Sorry for the confusion.

SiouxDogEater

Thai Bri

The training techniques you outline are crap. You will not learn how to defend yourself like that.

TNT

what other styles of Ninjitsu are there besides Bujinkan Ninjutsu and Koga Ryu...further how do they differ?

__________________
because the female is the more dangerous of the species

Hikage

Ninjitsu is a timing art. It's techniques are very precise and need to be well placed. Also it is based on (if the sensei knows what he is doing and is not trying to cover for his or her own lack of technique) creativity. These two concepts combine to warrant practicing in what seems ridiculously slow motion.

Working slowly will increase your concept of timing. All of your off-balancing (which by the way is in ALL the techniques, not just some. And if you don't get it, you'll never get Ninjitsu) is based on timing. That's how it works against someone who is resisting and who is intent on injuring you.

What they haven't shown you yet, and I hope they will, is how to shock your man. There are shots, which I call "pops", which are thrown into the mix. These are short, well placed hits designed to throw off your opponenet's rhythm and opens him up to easier off-balancing. For example, when you practice ichimonji, you drop back off the punch, strike his wrist, then walk around for a shuto to his neck (I assume that's the method you learned.) In reality, this is not feasible and you need to loosen him up (especially if he is taller than you) by throwing short punches to his center line, i.e. the breast plate, floating ribs, the top of his gut, etc. There is a myraid of punches that can be thrown in there because you are walking completely across the man's body. After he has been shocked, then he can be off-balanced. However, you need to understand the proper stepping and off-balancing techniques before you can begin throwing in those shots because your hands and feet start moving in complex patterns. You learn these by elongating your steps and by working slowly, invoking the wonderful concept of muscle memory.

Furthermore, when you work slowly, you see more of your options. As I previously stated, creativity is a fundamental concept of ninjitsu. You cannot move like your sensei, nor can he or she move as you do. You need to learn to do what works for you. By working slowly, however without pauses or an unbroken rhythm, you can see more of that which is available to you. When you rush, you miss much. You'd be suprised at what your options are once someone who knows shows you. I've been in ninjitsu for a while and I usually work at almost 1/4 speed when I'm working on techniques that I already know, so I can see what I can add to it. When I see a new one, I speed it up to make sure that I can pull it off. When I'm with someone who is experienced in the art, I'll have them throw at me, w/whatever and however. They'll be trying to take me out, and I'll be trying to get them. In that way we practice at speed.


Check your numbers, ninjas got 6 months training before being sent into the field.

-Hikage

__________________

martial_artist

I think I've heard of Bill Atkins before. Are his students very good? Is the way I described about the slow motion training completely different or similar to the way he trains? I'll try to find a Ninjutsu school under him.

__________________
martial_artist

m.artist

there's also saito ninjutsu
there a guy down in san diego who teaches it. again the only white guy to teach it to westerners but hey, looked good to me

__________________
"Before you open your mouth to speak, please make sure it's an
improvement upon the silence."

pstevens

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this. Practicing something in slow-mo, then thinking you'll just come to speed in real time isn't practical. My advice to the thread starter is to decide what type of training: self-defense, sport or hobby, he's interested in and continue in that direction.

In my experience, SD training or combat sport training for high adrenaline events, require intense, almost replicated training. In other words, kata training will not prepare you for a kickboxing bout, but sparring "kickboxing" fashion will.

Thai Bri

It is a total nonsense to train slowly and then expect it to somehow magically work quickly when needed. Ask any sprinter. It is another example of choosing easy training methods that will attract a large number of lazy students.

KSD

A recipe for disaster

Hikage

A recipe for triple chocolate brownies...

Triple Chocolate Brownies
All the chocolate bases are covered with this attractive and tasty brownie treat.

Ingredients:
Brownies:
1/3 cup butter
3 squares unsweetened chocolate
2/3 cup flour
1/2 teaspoon baking powder
1/4 teaspoon salt
2 eggs
3/4 cup sugar
1 teaspoon vanilla
1 cup white chocolate chips


Icing:
4 oz. milk chocolate
3 tablespoons butter



Directions:
Brownies:
Melt butter and chocolate together. Set aside to cool.


n a small bowl, combine flour, baking powder and salt.


In a large bowl beat eggs. Blend in sugar. Add chocolate mixture and vanilla. Stir in flour mixture, and white chocolate chips.


Pour into a greased 8 inch square pan. Bake at 325 degrees F. for 18 to 20 minutes. Cool.


Icing:
Melt milk chocolate and butter together.


Spread over the cooled cake. Cool and cut into squares. Store in refrigerator.


Thanks to http://www.donogh.com/cooking/brownies/triplec.shtml

-Hikage

__________________

KSD

yummy, but the disaster part comes with the e-lax

sherwinc

to tell you all, i am really impressed about the techniques of Ninjutsu......

the only important techniques of Ninjutsu for me is their "Art of Stealth Fighting"

not their art of "hand-to-hand combat" but their art of "Attack By Surprise" or their "Art of Escape"

__________________
"When your hand meets my hand, your hand is already my hand"

Question: What are the principal characteristics of a good fighter?

Answer: A good fighter has a lot of tricks, but doesn't play games

Lesson: More Techniques learned are better than Few