Thread: Baby food!

Maybe if we stop calling them MA, which they ain't most of the time
Karate-Do, Aiki-Do, Ju-Do, Ken-Do
All are Martial WAYS, meaning, you use the old MA techniques but not for learning how to defend yourself but more as a mental training or meditation kind of training
In a sense, they are the same as Cha-do(tea ceremony)

Now this is true for japanese Budo, I can't speak for other TMA
But at least a lot of japanse karateschools will admit this
It is in the west where we started to lay outragious claims

As for testing my skills, I have rarely been in a fight, why would I need to test my skills, the last 10 years, I haven't been in any SD situation at all
Why waste my time on SD at all if I can spend my time having fun in training?
I'm not competitive either, I don't mind you being better than me so I don't feel the need to compete either ( only reason I ever competed was because the club needed people to form a team)
The one reason I liked Judo and Karate and so on is because one does not have to compete every week
Now I do understand that for almost any American this is hard to understand but hea, I'm Dutch...you know the coutry filled with potheads

Toudy I agree maybe we Americans need to smoke more pot!

No I mean about the Do. There really should be a distinction between as you say the martial way and the martial arts. In the U.S. there really is no distinction. If you look in the yellow pages of the phone book under martial arts you see a lot of ads for MA schools there could be over a hundred schools in the metro area. Many say the world self-defense next to names like Shaolin Kung Fu self-defense, American kenpo for self-defense, Tea kwon do self-defense, Shotokan Karate self-defense. Many of them have gone as far as calling themselves reality self-dense. Shorin ryu reality self-defense, Hung Gar reality self-defense, House of Lees” Tea Kwan do reality self-defense, and etc.

Yea I know I rant about it, but honestly many, I mean many Karate, TKD, and Kung Fu guys around here really take offense if you tell them they don’t teach combat arts. They
Honestly believe the shit they are shoveling to be the truth. They do not know there is a distinction between as what you call the way and combat arts. I even hate the word arts as it applies to martial arts because how these traditionalist have bastardized it.

I mean these feel good arts are really about something other than combat. Perfecting character, loving one another, getting a long, honesty, trust, refrain from violent behavior it sounds more like a Girl Scout meeting then people training for combat. Now I am not saying these things are bad, but it doesn’t go with developing the killer instinct and combat mindset either. In Boot camp they never motioned learn to love each other or refrain from violence.

To defend yourself in a real attack against a determined to kill you attacker you have to be able to be return violence and attack back with vigor, tenacity, and ferocity. The feel good arts fall very short in this.

Sorry Ed we will have to disagree on this. I started this thread to talk about the Inefficiencies in training we find in so many Traditional MAs not to bash them, but its starting to turn that way. Sorry. I'll try get some more positive posts in here shortly.

hmmm, lets look as this a bit differently for a second.

Self defense:

Staying out of confrontations would be the ultimate in self defense. No confrontation, no chance of injury.

Learning to avoid areas that could lead to confrontations, learning to treat people in ways not to provoke confrontations, and learning that you have nothing to prove would thus increase many area's of self defense.

how many attacks are you faced with on a daily basis? Who are the people that you are likely to be facing in most altercations? Realize that most people are attacked by people the Know. They are being ATTACKED, by FAMILY, FRIENDS, NEIGHBORS. Not violent wandering rogues laying waste to cities and villages. There may be times when they will be attacked by a violent hardend enemy, but what is the likelyhood of this?

What does toughman have to do with self defense? What does MMA have to do with self defense?

MMA where TWO TRAINED FIGHTERS get together to fight. I have yet to run in to a trained fighter in the real world who wanted to fight with me. Now I am not saying that you cannot gain valuable insight into self defense from experiencing MMA and such. But how many have been injuried more in training and competition than in real world situations?


Remove the traits that lead you to be attacked and eliminate most of the potential to be attacked in adult life in civilized society.

By all means train hard, test, adapt. But self defense is about what one woman does some night when a friend decides he wants to take advantage of her. It is about the guy who's car you ran into and now he is screaming and yelling at you. Its about the guy who wants to break into your house and rob you or mug you on the street.

Its not about insulting people in bars and getting into fights because you are an A$$. That has nothing to do with self defense.

Weapons are a bit over rated, because most people simply do not train enough to use them defensively, hell most do not train enough to use them successfully offensively. Are their people that do? yes, Are they plentiful, no.

Get a toy knife and walking to almost any MA School, or Combatives school. At some point after you have been their awhile walk up behind the instructor and poke him with it. 9 out of 10 you pull it off. Why, Because they simply aren't prepared for someone they know to stick a knife in their back.

Nor are people prepared for the guy for the bar fight to bust down their door in the middle of the night and shoot them in their beds.

Avoidance is what traditional MA stress the most. They may take it a bit far and many schools may lack realistic training. But how many of you have had someone surprise you while you are home sleeping just to see how quickly you can get your bearings, find your gun, and be ready to fire.

Most of the people I know have not been in altercations since high school.
Other's seem to get into situations on a weekly basis.
Who's better at self defense?

Excessive-

Your assertions are very correct staying out of fights is the most important thing. Many non-criminal confrontations are often avoidable. I have given many ways and example of doing these things in other posts and seen some very good ones in various threads. I am not talking about the loud mouthed drunk in the bar, or the software designer who had a bad day and now he’s mouthing off to you. Any MA can prepare you for this. These are fairly easy to avoid from going violent.

When I use the word self-defense I am thinking about bubba who just got out of state prison and has probably killed before and now he is hell bent and determined to kill you and raping your wife!

In this thread I am talking about efficiency of training. How does a self-defense program train you efficiently to be both proficient and effective?


I think many systems over complicate this shit. This whole thing with martial arts is a bit obsessive. They obsess over cultural, spiritual, heretical, techniques, and stylized differences.

As an example of what I am talking about, I had a friend in college who was a former spec-op guy in the army who had studied Kung Fu for over 15 years. One day a few of us was sitting in the back of his truck (tail gate) in the parking lot eating lunch. When a scuffle broke out between a couple of guys and girls with yelling, spiting, and slapping. Well the chivalrous guys that we were we stepped in. On of the guys spit in the face of my KG friend and he came unglued.

He went in with furious abandon with nothing but straight punches (lefts and rights mostly except 2 or 3 palm strikes). He drove this guy straight back into a vehicle and pined him, a couple of punches later the guy was on the ground in a fetal position trying to cover up and crying.

All this took about 5 to 8 seconds. My point is this he had 15 years of training and he was a KF instructor although he soundly defeated this guy he did it solely with straight punches. No kicks, no circular motions, no fancy foot work, No throat, or eye strikes, nothing that would make you think he was a KF expert, although you would think him a bad ass.

Did the military teach him to be a bad ass, or was it his MA training, or was he just naturally a bad ass? I think he was just naturally a bad ass and the military reinforced that.

Example 2, I have told this story before in detail in another post. A friend of mine who had studied Karate for 7 years and the best tournament fighter in our school (he has a room full of trophies at home) got his ass handed to him outside a San Diego bar.

He mouthed off to some guy and that guy came over and started swinging wildly. My Karate friend was quickly overwhelmed and all he could do was to grab on for dear life. The fight went the ground and then we broke it up. My friend who is quick, agile, and well trained never landed a punch, or a kick, not a knee, not an elbow; the only technique he was successful with was a headlock. Hmmmm…. I trained in the same dojo as he did for 3 years and I do not ever remember practicing headlocks. Note they were both about the same size.

So what can we learn from this? Simple techniques work best, and are the most often employed techniques in street encounters. Boxing, 90% of all the street fights I have been in or witnessed boxing was the most common form used. Boxing that often lead to someone grabbing on clinching, or tackling.

This tells me we need to be strong in boxing skills, comfortable in the clinch (and fighting from the clinch), and able to counter takedowns.

Other things of importance:
1) Mental toughness- The ability to deal with fear and adrenaline. Having fortitude, determination, and tenacity.
2) Physical toughness- Physical strength, and conditioning, both anaerobic, and aerobic capacities.
3) Correct methods of training with attribute enhancement.
4) Techniques that are simple and gross motor skilled.

The traditionalists would have you believe that 100’s of techniques and fancier movement, culture, and spiritual endeavors are better. They tell us more is better, and fancier is better then they teach us these things using inefficient methods. Can you use TMAs for SD? Yes, but it shouldn’t take 15 years, or 10, or 5. But that’s how long it takes in the TMAs to be at the level of proficiency and effectiveness, if you ever reach it at all.

Well the trueth is nothing can truely prepare you for a fight in the street. Not traditional MA, Not MMA, tough guy contest nothing, except street fighting on a regular basis (in which you may loose your life - training).

There are arts that better prepare you, there are schools that better prepare you, there are instructors that better prepare you and there is training that better prepares you.

I think the students know what they are getting, and were there training puts them on the FOOD CHAIN. The trueth is most of them will never use there art and the ones that do; odds are the will likely beat their oponent if they engage them (The common person is not in shape), or avoid the confrontation they dont feel the can win or want to win.

The Higher level of true self defense is to sense a threat avoid it if you can, and if it can not or should not be avoided then attack the threat before it becomes more than a threat, a surprise attack can not be defended and a school girl does not need to be a MMA champion to mount attack that neither you nor I may quickly recover from.

There is a lot of truth to what you are saying however this in not completely true. Proper training can go long way but you cannot win every confrontation, but if you go around thinking there is no way to prepare then you have lost already. This is a defeatist’s attitude. But your point is well taken and true.

Now to get back to training.


Training principles:
1) biomechanics -the physics of how a body moves
2) nutrition -diets for strength and optimal energy
3) physiology -how the body responds
4) psychology -using the power of positive thought to model winning performances
5) Training -the most effective diet, exercise and psychology to build flexibility, strength, endurance or speed.
6) Design- To conceive and implementing an efficient training regime.
7) Analysis- To examine methodically by separating into parts and studying their interrelations to identify and correct any deficiencies

How to teach:

Using a variety of student-centered teaching approaches

Using co-operative learning approaches

Acknowledging students’ individual learning styles


In training these are the proper methods.

The Principle Of Individual Differences

Each Student is an individual with different learning needs. Students learn at different speeds and in different ways. An instructor needs to take these issues into account when teaching.

The Principle of Overload

The principle of overload states that a greater than normal stress or load on the body is required for training adaptation to take place. Or in other words once the adaptation has taken place the stimulus needs to be changed.
This needs to be done both physically as well as psychologically.

Physical adaptation- overloading
Psychological conditioning- operant conditioning


The Principle of Progression

Deals with optimal levels of overload in the optimum time frame the overload occurs.

The Principle of Adaptation

Adaptation is the way the body 'programs' muscles to remember particular activities, movements or skills

The Principle of Use/Disuse

Basically use it or looses it.

The Principle of Specificity

The Specificity Principle simply states that training must go from highly general training to highly specific training.

Intensity

Training needs to be intense without overtraining.

There are more details to each one but these in essence are the proper principles.

The three main goals of any training regime are:
1) Efficiency
2) Proficiency
3) Effectiveness

Getting started-

First we need a goal. This goal or goals needs to reasonable and achievable. Lets say our goal is to be able to defend ourselves then we need to figure out the most efficient way to train so we can accomplish this.

So how do we do this; we begin with a hypothesis, then we develop a theory to explain that hypothesis, and then we begin to experiment to prove or disprove our hypothesis, and then retest it to be sure that our results are reproducible.

In the Martial arts not only do we need to understand these principles but also we need to take them one step further and keep reapplying our results under different conditions and environments so we know our results are adaptable and pertinent.

We need to experiment, evaluate, and re-evaluate our data. Or in other words we must seek truth, test our perceived truth, apply and re-apply the results we get.

Then we must identify and eliminate any wasteful practices from our training routines. Next we need to develop optimal routines and workout plans. Drills and exercise have to be task specific. These methodologies must provide for fast learning and greater retention of knowledge and movements.

A good first step is to make our training as real as possible. A street attack is unpredictable, and violent. It can also happen suddenly without warning. So when designing live action drills make them as dynamic, chaotic, and as unpredictable as you can. Drills need to be done at real street speed.

We are still not done. We need to take our theories and practices outside the dojo walls less we get so caught up in our own cleverness that we cannot see the deficiencies in our own training. How do we do that without going to jail, the hospital, or the morgue?

We can take a good look, and study the things that are being done in events like the UFCs, Pride, and other NHB events. Why? Because they can give us clues to actually works. These guys want to be successful so they will do all they can to find the techniques, strategies, and tactics that work.

You can hold our own similar versions. You can break out the mats, and put on the pads and allow students to go at it, using near to no rules including punching at full speed and power to the head and body, clinching, takedowns, or even ground fighting. Of course this may mean you might have to go over falling and break falls, as well as grapping skills, but what a good and vital addition to your curriculum. You can also invite outside people from other MAs into your dojo to do live action drills to mix up the responses (do not invite them to prove them wrong).

You need to always continue to play the “what if” game and seek to improve. Trim of the things that don’t work and add new innovations of methods, exercises, drills, and techniques you find that does work.


Efficiency: The ratio of the effective output to the total input, or in other words what you get out of it is proportional to what you put into.

Proficiency: The state or quality of being proficient or competent. Having an advanced degree of competence.

Effectiveness: Having the intended or expected effect.

Methodology: A body of practices, procedures, and rules used by those who work in a discipline or in other words the branch of logic that deals with the general principles of the formation of knowledge.

Hypothesis: A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.

Theory: A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice.

Scientific method: The principles and empirical processes of discovery by demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation. Developing a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.

Dynamic: Relating to energy or motion, Characterized by continuous change, activity, and Marked by intensity and vigor (forceful).

Action: The state or process of acting or doing, Habitual or vigorous activity, the causation of change by the exertion of power.

Live: To be alive; exist to go through experiences, or to pursue a positive, satisfying existence.

I agree with much of what you said but it brings us full circle. Much of what your saying has already been done, by the traditionalists, rather than recreate the wheel re-exam history of the traditionalists, throw out the commercialism and add to it your approach and you can turn a stone wheel into a Good year tire.

Good example is the development of Aikido. Deadly, and effective in its day, when trimmed of its fat and mixed with contemporary theory and practicality it is still viable but drastically change, however fundamentaly intacted.

Which is why I dont knock, karate or the dojo training, the power in the basic are amazing. But they can not be left in there original form (baby food)I agree with you there.

Originally Posted by Toudiyama[NL]

Maybe if we stop calling them MA, which they ain't most of the time
Karate-Do, Aiki-Do, Ju-Do, Ken-Do

By that definition I'd have to say that MOST MMA are not martial arts at all. Why call them martail arts? They are just a mix of techniques from whatever source they choose to draw from.

The problem is martial arts are what they are. We can't say your art does not fit the times, it is no longer a martial art.

Maybe a new name for MMA is needed, one that does not include the words martial arts. Because from what I read in these forums is that martial arts don't work. So why associate the modern training systems with the old ones (by taking their names) that don't work?

Originally Posted by Jitsu

I agree with much of what you said but it brings us full circle. Much of what your saying has already been done, by the traditionalists, rather than recreate the wheel re-exam history of the traditionalists, throw out the commercialism and add to it your approach and you can turn a stone wheel into a Good year tire.

Good example is the development of Aikido. Deadly, and effective in its day, when trimmed of its fat and mixed with contemporary theory and practicality it is still viable but drastically change, however fundamentaly intacted.

Which is why I dont knock, karate or the dojo training, the power in the basic are amazing. But they can not be left in there original form (baby food)I agree with you there.

If you really try to break it down- the problem with why so many perceive (right or wrong) TMAs to less effective I would think that it is commercialism.

Toudy said it- 'It really wasn't meant for the masses".

Let me use Karate here as an example- Karate we assume was created for combat using indigenous Okanawan fighting systems combined with Chinese systems, but there is no real evidence of its true effectiveness before the 1800's. Oh there are stories and myths but not a real good written record.

Itsu, Atsu (sp?) and the like began to change things a bit around this time kata was added, this was a relatively new concept. Gichin Funakoshi picked the ball and more changes.

When karate finally came out of the closet and into the light it gained acceptance and ultimately it was assimilated into society, and was changed forever. In the early 1900’s karate became part of the public education system exercise curriculum in the elementary schools, and changes had to be made to make it safer for children. A little later it was introduced to the universities and became popular as a sport. Again changes had to be made to it to make it safe for competitors and rules added to allow scoring and judging, further separating karate from its combat roots.

Today we find karate still steeped in tradition but practiced more like a sport or dance than a combat system. Some will even argue that karate isn’t for combat at all but meant to be nothing more than a fitness routine like Tae-Bo.

Karate has become half elementary school exercise and half sport. Neither will do you much good against a hardened thug hell bent on bashing your brains out.

As for the TMAs been there and done that they did as for what they had, but they did not go far enough, and they stoped.

Efficiency in training.

I am going to start by talking about what is inefficient.

What is inefficiency in training?

Inefficient methods of training would be: Any practice of techniques or movements that do not mimic or duplicate the application of the intended technique or movement.

A few examples:

1) In Karate we see practitioners from the beginner to the advanced levels practicing punches from the waist, and over exaggerated blocks coming from the waist.
2) We see defense drills being performed against known attacks at slow to moderate speeds with willing and compliant partners.
3) Kata or forms practice with techniques, movements, footwork, blocks and strikes that are not specific to what you would do in real fighting.
4) Pre-arranged drills beyond the beginner level.
5) Weapons training with weapons that are not carried for self-defense in today’s world.
6) ETC.

These things can improperly train your neuromuscular memory slowing reaction time, and or take time away from other drills and exercises that are more productive.

The reason it takes so long to become proficient and effective in KF or even in Karate is you have go through training using incorrect methods, and the garbage of cultural, stylized, spiritual, and hieratical crap it’s a wonder anyone ever becomes good.

The biggest problem I see in so many TMAs are their reliance on predictability to make their techniques work.

Inefficiency is garbage in and garbage out.

So how do we train?

What are efficient ways to train?

The practice of techniques and movements that are specifically intended for its proper application, or in other words our training needs to be task specific.


We start with theory, while learning techniques. After you learn technique then it’s on to the pads, bags, and live drills.

1) Live drills- Sparring drills, mini scenarios, and full scenarios (do at street speed).
2) Working against a pad holder, focus mitts, Thai pads and etc.
3) Working on heavy bags.

The majority of your training needs to be done this way. Not punching thin air, not performing Kata, not holding you arm out at the end of a strike.

A few examples of proper training:

1) Use correct hand and feet placement, and striking in the way you would against a life partner or attacker.
2) Make defense drills LIVE, unpredictable, and against unwilling non-cooperating partners. Practice at real speeds, street speed.
3) Student’s need to hit things; pad holders, heavy bags, and etc.
4) Live action drilling.
5) The use and training with weapons that you carry/use for self-defense and the weapons you may actually face.



What are live drills?

A live drill is spontaneous, unpredictable and dynamic. They are done at real speeds. I call it street speed.

An example of a live drill:

The attacker will be told (out of ear shot of the defender) to start a fight by saying “what are you looking at”? Then go in for a push then immediately go for a double leg take down.

The defender doesn’t know what to expect. He just responds.

*Protective equipment can be worn so the participants can go full speed with power.
* The attacker can be told what to do, or he can choose his own attacks.

One of my favorites is to have one of the other student’s walks up and start talking smack. The defender will believe this is the actual attacker while the real attacker will sneak up from behind and attack.

* Many attacks start with words and often the first strike will be a push. But first strikes can often be punches, clinches, takedowns, or just about anything. So I use all of these a lot in my training. However, use your imaginations to come up with many different drills.

Live weapons drills can be applied the same way.

A good example of a live weapons drill:

Attacker will place a knife in his belt, sheathed or unsheathed, or it can be concealed. The defender may not even know the attacker has a knife.

The armed attacker will attack, using hands/feet/clinches/grappling, etc. The unarmed defender will defend with hand/feet/clinches/grappling, etc. Armed attacker will wait until defender is preoccupied with defenses then at what ever time the attacker deems fit to draw and attack with knife he is free to do so.

Note: Attacker does not have to use the knife it is his choice. The defender will not know when, how, or if the knife will be deployed.

Knife wrestling drill: Both partners will take hold of a knife. The whistle blows and they fight over the knife. Twisting the knife to cut fingers, hands, and wrists are allowed, punches/kicking/grappling is allowed. The one who gets complete control of the knife is the winner or he can continue to attack and the other guy has to defend.

* Live weapons training should be done with safety guns, knives, and etc.

The students learn to expect the unexpected; they increase their awareness, and understand the unpredictability the face in the street.

If you want to see real efficiency go to a credible boxing gym, Muay Thai gym, college wrestling practice, or even an Olympic gymnastics practice and you will see truly efficient ways of training for their prospective goals.

Now do the same at any traditional martial arts school claiming to teach self-defense and you may see a few efficient training methods but for the goal of self-defense much of what you see will be inefficient methods of training.

We must rid our schools of any wasteful practices that do not directly apply to our goals. Drills need to be live, unpredictable, and dynamic. Drills that work with natural reactions need to be intergraded with defense training. Training and drills need to mimic what happens in real life and in the way it happens in the street.