Durahell

I've been reading tons of comments from allover the internet commenting the karate style known as Shotokan Karate. The comments often go on about it being the weakest form of karate and a worthless self-defence art. And now, I want to discuss everything that has to do with Shotokan Karate.

Many people start with the one thing about Shotokan not being about full contact. And that that alone is making it a worthless sport. But who actually believes in this bullshit? Yes, I am willing to go as long as that and call it actual bullshit, no offence. To those who have not studied shotokan they should know it's all about respect, and then you cannot harm your karateka's. You all work together at the same time you work agains yourself most of the time. Shotokan is incredibly pedantic (dunno if that's a word). Which means that the studens have to train extremely hard to get EVERY aspect of a technique absolutely perfect.

This alone creates a very tricky form of training where you have to use your brain alot. To get all the motoristic aspects working fluidly.

Shotokan does have semi-contact sparring. Is that effective then? It is incredibly good to get your footwork going. But technique wise not many techniques can be used. it's basicly just punching and roundhousekicks/front-snap-kicks. Many people say "full contact is better, it toughens you up, learn from your mistakes, you'll know how it feels like to get hi". And my natural responce to that is always "what kind of an idiot doesn't know that getting hit HURTS?

I'd say Shotokan is great contest-wise. You don't get hit noir hit your opponent. BUT, it's point gathering and due to that you really don't want to get hit because then the opponent get's either a win or half a point.
To me, this should really build up your blocking techniques due to every kick or punch has to be seen extremely serious. And not in other contests where you easily could let one punch or two slip in.

What is shotokan all about then? To be able to get out of a fight as fast as possible without any unecessairly confrontations. That's why the techniques that are teached can be very cruel and damageing. Many of the techniques have a large risk of either permanently damageing your opponent or put his/her life at danger. So that's why, shotokan wouldn't do well at all Full-Contact wise. There some are some techniques that are concidered very low-danger but it still wouldn't give much variation enough to actually win against a routine skilled full-contact opponent.

So maby shotokan doesn't do very well sport-wise. But how about in it's originally intended place? The "self-defence" section?

That is the absolutely hardest thing to answer to me. And I bet you also would have a pretty difficult time determing wether it would work or not.
I'd say, it's up to the person itself. We all know, that in a real life situation what matters absolutely most, is REFLEXES!!! If you hit your opponent first with a technique which is predicted to bring your opponent down in just one hit, you will win the fight.

What do you think would happen to a full-contact figher if he is confronted by a real-life fight? His first reaction would be to throw a punch or kick or whatever would be legal in a full-contact fight. Of course it would be effective, but due to all the contesting instead of a truly lethal blow, instead a more "soft" one would be triggered. This is something that might differ from someone who has never truly gone a full-contact match. A self-defence trainee would probably go for a neck/throat/eye blow right away.
Theese are only assumptions I'm making. Which I'm here to do in this thread. You're free to comment.

I am currently training shotokan Karate and have been doing now for almost two years. I find it a great way of getting into shape and protecting yourself. Even though you don't have to hit yourself and others all messed up. We also have almost no worries of getting permanent wounds when training. I also train some kickboxing now. But also this one, without any real full contact either than on sandbags and against an opponent who is holding a very protecting pillow.

What I would say to all who are training shotokan, is to try and snap out of the intensive thinking that's involved. If a real fight would come your first thing to do should not be to think "he's coming at me with a high blow, I can use my age-uke and then counter, or step aside and..." you get the point. Forget all about that you are training shotokan, there's no time to think. Just react and see whatever happends.

It's a very beautiful art involving life and spirit at the same time. And if you haven't trained it, don't judge it before you see it's true capabilities.

Juicefree

I think your argument, though well intentioned, has many flaws.

Suffice to say that Shotokan, as taught today, has limited practical applications (in the street) and, without supplementing with another art, extremely limited applications in a match-fight scenario.

I'd suggest reading through the many, many posts on this Forum to widen your appreciation of the modern martial art scene.

That being said ;

Durahell

Shotokan alone might not be the supreme chose for a martial art. Since you would need some things to be there already from the start.

You would need:
1) A strong sence of "will-to-fight"
2) Students who also has the "will-to-fight"
3) A teacher who has enough skills within the art so that he can extend and take the art to further levels.

If any of those things aren't included, you're gonna get dissapointed if you want a martial art where you can truly feel that you're getting much better all the time.

I've found that shotokan is one of the best things to mix with other arts though. And I'd say that in general, it would almost be needed. Shotokan is perfect for focus and performance of techniques and other arts might be good for more "out-of-control" behaviour in performing many techniques.

It's good to know the both sides of the Martial art performing. To be able to keep cool, and to be able to let loose 100%.

Hardball

I took it for a year. It's a traditional martial art. If you don't like Katas; stay away from Shotokan. If you like strong punches then you will love Shotokan. The Shotokan kicks are o.k. if that is the first and only style that you have studied but if you are coming from another system--the shotokan kicks will confuse the hell out of you.

__________________
The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 40,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

Sagacious Lu

Based on the parts in red text I think you might have some huge misconceptions. I strongly recommend that you go to a full contact gym and try sparring hard- I think you'll be shocked by how different it is. If you train for light contact or point sparring than you aren't going full speed, and if you aren't training at full speed you won't be able to fight at full speed.

__________________

Durahell

No full speed? Trust me, you MUST go full speed. That's what shotokan is about.

You must use your techniques at full power, full speed, BUT with so much focus that you can stop the technique before impact. Still with all the potencial power to go.

So full-contact faster? I seeeeeriously doubt that. I've been watching tons of K1 and other "noob" boxing and the speed and "action-fluency" is about as fast as any shotokan sparring match between two skilled fighters.

Sagacious Lu

If you're stopping before impact you're not going full power or full speed. But hey, you saw K1 on the TV so you must know all about it

__________________

Durahell

how can it not be full speed if one succeeds to throw a punch at full speed + full power and just stop the technique before impact? I've never felt any difference anyway. And I doubt a few has. At tournaments you must also hit, but then you wear protection. So you can hit harder. I don't ever think you guys would understand this if you haven't tried it.

Sagacious Lu

It can't possibly be full speed and full power if you didn't actually hit anything with it, end of story. What makes you so sure I've never tried sparring the way you're describing?

__________________

Durahell

Well I can guarantee one thing, it's not easy if that's what you think (tournament wise) And it doesn't lower you standards as a fighter either.

It's a very different form of training. Different doesn't mean worse. I believe my chance of winning a fight is equal to a student of another style who has trained equally long no matter what style.

If you have it withing you, you know what you shall do with it.
The trainers give you the basics, you are to ponder upon them. And mix with whatever you learn throughout your life. Perhaps some things doesn't work for you that you learn, then you don't use them. Then you replace them with something that DOES work for you.

Sagacious Lu

How can you know what your standards as a fighter are if you don't fight? How could you possibly know what works for you if you never hit your opponent? How do you know how you perform after getting stunned by a hard shot if your training partners don't hit you? Believe me, I have no interest in belittling Shotokan as a style, but so far it just sounds like you're making excuses not to spar.

__________________

Durahell

How can you know what your standards as a fighter are if you don't fight?

Everytime I spar, I fight.

How could you possibly know what works for you if you never hit your opponent?

THe question is not "does it work", the question is "can you perform it?". That can only be profen in a real fight no matter what. When it's all about protecting yourself, no rules whatsoever, it's a completely different game from anything else.

How do you know how you perform after getting stunned by a hard shot if your training partners don't hit you?

Worse, who doesn't?

Believe me, I have no interest in belittling Shotokan as a style, but so far it just sounds like you're making excuses not to spar.

Mate, I will spar. I'm switching to MMA/BJJ/MuayThai/Kyokushin sometime february next year.

My point is, you can become a great fighter without going full-contact. It's not a NEED to become the best fighter.

The thing is though, is that it's harder for yourself to know wether you are good or not. Sparring shotokan-style is much like shadow boxing, it increases your skills, without getting hit though. And I'd say shadowboxing against an opponent is better than anything at all.

It animates how a fight could look like. And I know how it feels like to get hit. Having sparred for 2 years will definitly make some hits slip. And it hurts, indeed.

You just don't need to loose the fighting attitude because you hurt someone.

When I switch to full-contact fighting, I will reply to this thread. If I was wrong, I will admit it. If my theory still holds at some boarders, I will explain what I miss from Shotokan-style and what I think is good with full-contact fighting.

Sagacious Lu

This is fair play, definately come back and let us know how you feel about this issue after spending some time (at least a couple months) at a full contact club regardless of whether you choose MMA, BJJ, MT, KK or something else. Having tried both ways I couldn't disagree more. You can't learn to fight effectively without going full contact, but by all means, don't take my word for it go and see for yourself.

__________________

Durahell

Will do mate

PlasmaShock

Durahell you obviously havent trained in shotokan long enought to understand more of it. I have been training for 4 years and im a 4thy kyu. Alot what you said is true but alot isnt. Its all about hpw the practitioner thinks, trains, believes and interprets. Train longer before posting stuff like this on the forums please.