Uke

Kimura was Oyama's friend and mentor. And to a degree, Thai Bri is right. Oyama's hands were deformed from extreme conditioning. But damaged? They weren't damaged to a degree that they weren't near perfect for combat. One hit, certain death, my man. That says it all.

And by the way, did anyone know both Kado and Kimura threw Helio Gracie around like a rag doll in their matches? Even though Kado lost to an eventual choke, he had executed techniques that in his native Japan would have won him the match. My point is that Helio Gracie, while being adept at chokes and armbars from newaza range, was no match for a well trained judoka on his feet. Oyama had extensive experience as a judoka(4th dan) and had dozens of matches against similarly trained judoka in his 270 unbeaten no holds barred matches against judoka, boxers, wrestlers and karate fighters. That goes to prove that Oyama had more than his share of fighting experience with grapplers and their tactics. Those matches took place in America in 1952, one year after Helio lost to Kimura. Many were televised.

Helio certainly knew of Oyama, as Oyama had sent students to Brazil and abroad to represent his way of karate. But Helio wanted no part of Oyama. In fact, its my understanding that Helio was dealing with his own issues after being knocked out by Aldemar Santana a year before Kimura returned to Brazil to fight Santana to a draw.

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Garland

...I would so sign up for a match with Helio or Oyama back in the day. I could be all like... "Oh, yeah? Well I got the shit kicked out of me by Mas Oyama. Or Helio choked me out...what now?! Who wants my autograph?"

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Uke

That's a hell of a beating to take just for bragging rights.

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Garland

...Just think...jump in there with Helio and just tap as soon as he touches you...or try and play dead with Oyama...kind of like how you deal with a grizzley bear.

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Uke

Hahahahaha ... you mean like in boxing when there's a phantom punch?

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Thai Bri

Really? Who did he kill?

I've seen footage of his bull fights too. He wrassled these half starved pitiful sized beasts to the floor like a very average cowboy.... and then killed them whilst they were helpless. Hardly the typical image of chop chop chopping a charging killing machin, is it?

SamuraiGuy

Yeah, I'd like to see this bull footage, I find it hard to believe.

I've seen a guy hit a bull in the face with a sledge hammer before and it didnt kill it.

Now... the bull was running at him and he couldnt get away so he sledge hammer it (was putting up fence posts).

I think he ended up with a broken back or something.

Anyway, sledge hammer is smaller than a fist in PSI terms... and while it may not have been the cleanest shot, it definetly hit it in the head, and when a bulls running at you, you swing that thing hard.

Didnt drop the bull, or kill it.

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I want a girl that spends more time on her back than Royce Gracie.

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Thai Bri

It was on this site soemwhere. Do a search!

Garland

YouTube - Mas Oyama

YouTube - Sosai Mas Oyama

this one kicks ass...groovy tunes

YouTube - Sosai masutatsu oyama musik video

there is no doubt in my mind he was one of the hardest hitters of the modern era...boxers included. The man was a fucking beast.

warm up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrXjM1HZ7Zs

100 man kumite? Jesus.

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Garland

Look at his frame. The man was a monster. He got bigger with age too. Scary scary.

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WildWest.

Coming from a country with a considerable agriculture background I can honestly tell you first hand that a fully grown bull is an absolute beast of an animal. They are incredibly strong, powerful and huge. They can shatter thick fence posts without even blinking an eye.

Oyama may have been an awesome martial artist (I don't dispute that) but to kill a bull, especially a fully grown one, sounds a little hard to believe.

As a side note. I was travelling in Swaziland (Africa) some years ago and watched about 100 young boys/youths kill a considerably large bull, complete with horns, with their bare hands as a sign of their masculinity in front of the King. It took them over half an hour to do it. I'm not talking little kids, but guys aged around 17 - 25. They don't just lay down and die.

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Thai Bri

How can you say that? He was reasonably well muscled, but that's it. No matter how much he puffed up his chest he looked less strong than an average Rugby forward.

This reminds me of things I used to read about regarding a guy called Choki Motubi. Billed as a 7 feet tall monster by many, actual photographs show him as about 5 feet 7 inches.......

The myth of the invincible martial artist! We want to believe it so much we see it when it plainly is not there.

Uke

My question is where is the myth?

Mas Oyama wasn't one of those masters that lived in some obscure place and only whispers of his legend survived. This man died in 1994. Many of his fights were televised in America. He went to jail for killing a man with one punch, but was found innocent of murder because the man accosted him with a knife.

There is footage of his bull fights, and if the bulls were sick, how do you explain him getting impaled by one and being hospitalized for 6 months? More than that, there are a lot of men alive today who have met Oyama and can testify to the power of his strikes. He traveled the world taking on challenges, yet leave it to some to call him "mythical".

There's nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate, but there is definitely something wrong with trying to discredit an icon that did less boasting and more proving than nearly any other martial artists in the 20th Century. I read these boards and see who people worship Bruce Lee, a man that they've NEVER actually seen fight outside of movie sequences. But Mas Oyama, a man who fought 270 people in no rule televised matches that usually ended with one punch, fought bulls that were released into large arenas and not confined quarters, and killed a man with one punch is being scrutinized pending further proof. How much more can a man do than defeat hundreds of men on TV, fight and knifehand chop off their horns, and kill a knife wielding man with one punch in front of dozens of people who witnessed it?

Tons of credit is given to the Gracies for taking on fighters, but they didn't want to fight him. Oyama was taking on anyone who would fight one year after Kimura broke Helio's arm. And in that match, there were rules. They weren't striking each other. Helio knew that if he had gotten hit just once by Oyama that it would have finished him.

Oyama isn't mythical in the least. He was just a fanatical man who sought to reach new levels of conditioning and prowess that average men won't ever know. That's what made him great. Kimura, probably the greatest judo icon next to Kano, was the only man Oyama said trained just as hard as he did. And we see how easily Kimura defeated the great Helio Gracie.

Greatness comes from hard work. Legendary status is for men who put in the hard work to rise above the level and accomplishments of average men. They go above and beyond. They are rare, but not "mythical".

It just bothers me when people say things like that about men who are dead now, but more than proved their mastery when they were alive. Go let Master Pan Qing Fu aka IronFist hit you and see if he's mythical. I doubt that you will go, but the proof of higher levels of conditioning is out there.

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JkD187

Excellent Post.As much as i love BJJ and all other aspects of MMA....i have to say one thing:Helio was NOT a great or even good fighter if you honestly look at his recorded fights most of his fights were draws...his record was 3-3-6.Thats back in the 30s-50s when pretty much NOONE knew BJJ that is rediclously medicore and thats being extra extra nice.Helio im sure was a great teacher but even then the Gracie's "Dead Guard" method is obsolite nowadays.Oyama was a true fighter with an extremely high leveled work ethic constantly testing the boundries of the human limit and whooping peoples asses.Helio was a tiny framed person all his life and never had the attributes or build to finish of guys with little skill.Oyama would litterly murder Helio...also on a side note if the padding on the mats were thinner in the Kimura vs Helio fight,Kimura would of knocked him cold with his amazing throws.

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Garland

WHAT THE FVCK?! ...no. just stop now, please.

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